Structures and procedures matter: Comments Thread

[jtanzer]

Thanks for the link, I'll definitely check it out.

Edit: I'll make a Word Doc with the things that I disagree with. I'll try not to be too harsh, however there's quite a bit that I'm already not liking. I know that some of the GMs here prefer linear game styles, however that style comes with a variety of trade-offs that I don't particularly find enjoyable.

Edit #2: I'm doing a detailed strip-down on it, and while there are things I disagree with, there's also some good advice sprinkled in there. I'll be adding those to the Word doc as well.
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The best villians are the ones the PCs create.

[pakman]

[Whill]

[Mamatried]

I have been reading the original post here, and I am a little confused as to the whole thing.

it is made as a claim that D&D is some form of industry standard, it is NOT the system is however.

We see that the D20 system in it variants is still the most prevelant game system in the industry.
The "funny dice" system (funny dice is my words on a system I am not very familar with) that came with the new Fantary Flgight books are not an industry standard yet, but is getting up there.

As one who started RPGs in the early 1980s I have played D&D, D&D 2ed, Advanced D&D and then the 3.0 and 3.5 additions all based on the "older" d20 system, with the disaster that came with D&D 4th edition a lot was changed.

As to being sandbox I would say that the systems are both very sandbox and equally very structural.

To run a SWD6 mission where your rebel strike team sabotages the Imperial Supply base, IS not much different than a dungeon crawl, both are in a defined area and this is the relevance, both could use a battlemap and tokens, even the floorplan of a ship IS a dungeon, have a crew defend their ship and we have a small dungeon.

My introduction to SW D& was of course though the movies and the theme, but after a very little time most of the people I played with becvmae "sandbox2 players and GMs, even changing a template, making a new one or even playing out a simple supply run is and will have elements of a "crawl" it can not be avoided.

Structures and rules only go thus far, and Most if not all RPG systems do state that the rules are to be seen more as GUIDELINES than anything set in stone.

If you go back to the late 70s, through the 80s and until the early 90s, we had many mixed systems, like the d100 based Rolemaster that while very structured and ruled, was designed to be sandboxed by the GM.

I am confused as what the complaint about the system is?
it is lacking too much rules and stuctures or does it have too many?

I see the system over the game, to me the game is a setting and the system is the "world and rules" meaning it is no differnt with a knight riding a horse or a stromtrooper riding a speeder bike....

so what is actually the complaint, too much sandbox, too little little sandbox or is it some confusion on where the system stands on this?

I would say that the GM and the payers toghether makes their awsers to all the issues raised by playing and deciding on how to at their table.

[jtanzer]

[pakman]

[raithyn]

[FVBonura]

jtanzer please take some time to read the Gamemaster Handbook and let me know how well it addresses your issues. I myself recall not taking away too much from that book because I kept saying to myself, “yeah I already know that”. I would like some perspective from a game master who doesn’t have 1st Ed AD&D under their belt.

I’m wondering if you could contact Justin Alexander and extended him an invitation to this forum so that he might opine on the subject.
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Star Wars Deckplans Alliance
Star Wars Prequel Commentary

[cheshire]

I can tell you what I've done in my last adventure. I have low-level characters, and most are Jedi, so that even further lowers the skill competency across the board. So, I need to develop an adventure. I started with a problem which I seeded in the previous adventure.

- Allies captured by a swoop gang.

That's all we knew before we closed the previous adventure. So, now I have a problem I'm willing to work with. So I planned out assets and liabilities.

Assets:
- Sherrif in town who is willing to provide information.
- The kidnappers are violent, but they're working for ransom, so the captives are likely to be kept alive. They're well armed, but not an organized, disciplined unit.
- They like to party and drink at night, and so they sleep (or pass out) hard.

Liabilitites
- Enemies have swoops.
- Thet are situated on a mesa with easy line of sight nearby.
- They have a downed freighter on the mesa that can't lift off, but they have an active turret on the ship, providing some ground-to-air defense.

Then I kind of mapped out the social factors that would create this. I won't list those out, but it helps flesh out the world if they go poking around. But, for example, the sheriff can't take care of the swoop gang because his resources are limited. When the Empire collapsed in the sector, the bad guys got a lot of arms from the garrison. So, the sheriff is outgunned.

Then I drew a makeshift map that would make sense to me with living areas, prisoner areas, booty collection, and observation points. And of course the armory.

Objectives:
Main: rescue their friends.
Secondary: Wreck the armory for the sheriff to level the playing field.

Now, HOW they solve the problem is up to the players. And they do things I didn't expect. If I was working strictly procedurally, I don't think I would have been able to make a flowchart for what they did. I expected them to go in at night, grab the prisoners, steal some swoops, and then have a chase through some canyons.

They managed to do it almost 100% stealth, quietly take out guards, and make off with prisoners before setting timed charges on the armory.

I feel like if I tried to make a flow chart to make a procedurally-generated adventure it would have taken away from the character's own improvisation, responding to threats on the board, and create their own solutions.

But the problem is that this requires a lot of intuitive improv by the GM. Someone punched a bad guy out. But there was another bad guy sleeping/guarding the prisoners. Does he wake up?

Well... it depends. How much noise did they make? How does his waking create a reasonable threat as opposed to an unreasonable overload of what the players could handle? What does his, or others waking or sleeping do to the overall challenge level of the moment and the overall adventure?

I think the difference between some of us GMs is that we can rely on enough experience to judge what is enough to be fun, but not too much to be overburdening or stressful.

Likewise, back to the crate. You roll search and open the crate... and then what? Frankly, I tend to reward rolls that are improbably high. Maybe I only planned on there being spare blaster packs and a cred stick in there. But if the Wild Die explodes and suddenly someone rolls a 34 on three dice, then I feel like that has to mean something. Maybe there is an encrypted datapad in there of unrecognized alien design and it's a future adventure seed. Maybe it's a rare artifact. Maybe it's a droid upgrade that they would have wanted, but they still need to work to install it. I literally don't have a roadmap for that. A lot is improv, imagination, and reading the room. And I think a roadmap what you want.
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Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind.