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Specialization question
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2023 2:49 pm    Post subject: Specialization question Reply with quote

So I have a force adept in my group, specilized in double bladed lightsaber at 5D+1, however he has now been abel to raise his lightsaber skill to 5D+2 and according tot he RAW the specialization is now not rolled for, since the default skill is higher.

I have ruled and understand that the person still know how to use this weapon but the rules state that if you no have the specialization so and so penalties are given to the skill use, but when you rise the mother skill-lightsber above the specialization the rules say you loos the specialization rolls at least, but do you still count as specialized for the bonuses.

maul, if he raised his lightsber skill to higher than his double bladed specialization, would he loose the specializations benefits?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my understanding, yes.. He's no longer essentially specialized.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So he lose any benefits, like +5 to appry if specialized, and +1 difficulty level and no parry bonus for non specialized......

Also this question came up with qualifying for lightsaber forms, in which it statd lightsber XD in requiremnts, will this include the specialization.

as in Joe the jedi has lightsaber specialization double bladed at 7D but lightsaber skill at 5D+1, soe he qualify for a style requiring 7D to lightsber skillas his specislization is high enough, or does he not sinc e the requiement is the main skill?
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pakman
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2023 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um.....

He would just use the higher core skill.... it is not like he forgot the specifics of the double blade.


You don't "lose" your knowledge of a specific thing, just because you learn more of a general concept.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well with the specielizatio it is I belive moderate difficulty on the weapon and a bonuse to parry

Now with the loss of the bonus, or rather if not specilized it stated that because of the weapin being so and so cumbersome, unusual etc and all that the difficulty is now 1 step higher. and I of course do not gain the parry bonus, but my skil, in lightsber is better and this is what do not make sense ot me.

I would belive that when you have invested CP into a skill and this is raised becuse reasons and neede to etc, to equal or higher than a spciality the spacility goes avay, and this is fine when the effect is a mere +pip or +Dice, but when it actual abiliries and effects beyond this I find hard that we unlearn as we progress.

I would think that any spesific bonuses may go away as they are balanced out by the higher skill, but I would not thing that all the speciality is lost, as if never held the weapon so I am about to suggest that the bonuses may in some cases carry over, but the penalties are not.

meaning I have lightsaber 5D and specialized at 6D, and I have raide the skill to eventually 6D, and loosing the specialization, but I do keep the parry bonus for this weapon only, and it is not more difficult to use. this becuse of the cost of cp invested and it not making sense ot unlearn as you progress in a skill
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is why, i never understand why someone would even TAKE a specialty, BUT RAISE HIS core skill, to where the specialty is no longer higher...
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pakman wrote:
Um.....

He would just use the higher core skill.... it is not like he forgot the specifics of the double blade.


You don't "lose" your knowledge of a specific thing, just because you learn more of a general concept.


Mamatried wrote:

I would belive that when you have invested CP into a skill and this is raised becuse reasons and neede to etc, to equal or higher than a spciality the spacility goes avay, and this is fine when the effect is a mere +pip or +Dice, but when it actual abiliries and effects beyond this I find hard that we unlearn as we progress.


Not how it works in RAW though.

Han Solo is consistently shown in stats as having a blaster skill higher than his blaster: blaster rifle specialization, and has a much higher blaster: heavy blaster pistol. He's good with most types of blasters, great with heavy blaster pistols, but sucks (relatively speaking) with a rifle. Pretty sure that this was meant to showcase his poor marksmanship on the Death Star.

Obviously you can ignore it if you wish, but I've always treated it this way.

I'd do this if I had a character I wanted to be particularly *bad* at one thing in particular.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The issue that came up here was not the specialization rules per say, nost times it is adding dice and pips and you loose the duce and pips when the skill is equal or higher than specialization.

Blaster: 4D
Blaster-Pistol 5D
raise Blaster to 5D and loose Specialization at no effect on game

but

Weapon has ability depending on speciality, adding +X to skill/damage
rules text gives incresed difficulty for weapon and loss of bonuse if not specialized......

those are two very differnt things, in fact they are night and day different,a dn in the latter case, like with the zenji needles of the mistryl guards, here the weapon gives str+3d+1 when specialized and str +1D when not, if you then rais the skill to

Thrown wepon 4D
Thrown Weapon Zenji Needles 5D

Raise Thrown Weapon to 5D
Now you suffere amnesia and severe memory loss and the actual loss of any and all knowledge of a "signature" weapon, the bonus is pr rules no gine becuse the skill is not specialized,

so how to solve that, becuse specializing and losing a simple sill dice/pip is fine and do balance out fully but loosing all abilities, bonsuses and gain penalties becuse you IMPOROVE your skill and get better and then have less skill makes absoultely no sense to me

I am thinking that is you have a specializzation , you have it forever, as in the effects of it, but of course if applies to that weapon/item only

so the person do raise his thrown weapon skill and loses the SKILL DICE inclreace in the Zenji needels, since there is no differenc he uses his skill, however he does when using his needles still gain ALL benefits of being skilled with the weapon, but this only applies to his zenji needles not his knives or his rocks
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Specialization question Reply with quote

I have been trying to follow this thread and understand it, but you seem to be confused as to how specializations work. I will try to explain, but you should also read up on skills and specializations in greater depth.
Mamatried wrote:
So I have a force adept in my group, specilized in double bladed lightsaber at 5D+1, however he has now been abel to raise his lightsaber skill to 5D+2 and according tot he RAW the specialization is now not rolled for, since the default skill is higher.

Yes, if you raise your base skill above a specialization, then you would use the base skill as your Die Code. I do not know WHY WEG did not have raising a base skill also raise the specializations as raising an attribute does, but they did not. You do not lose your specialization or forget your skills - they still apply.


Quote:
I have ruled and understand that the person still know how to use this weapon but the rules state that if you no have the specialization so and so penalties are given to the skill use, but when you rise the mother skill-lightsber above the specialization the rules say you loos the specialization rolls at least, but do you still count as specialized for the bonuses.

What "bonuses"? The only bonus for specializations is that they are easier to raise (half the cost of normal) so it is easier to get them to higher die codes faster. They provide no other special bonuses, so there is nothing to lose.

Regarding Double-Bladed Lightsabers, there never were any official rules published, and I have seen so many fan write ups with contradictory information. If you are referring to some "special" rules in some fan write up then there is the problem. Just as you would not need a specialization to use a double-sided sword, nor do you need a lightsaber specialization to use these - though the base difficulty to use them should be higher. Nor should any character get special additional bonuses for having a specialization if it is required to use it in the first place.

Quote:

Weapon has ability depending on speciality, adding +X to skill/damage
rules text gives incresed difficulty for weapon and loss of bonuse if not specialized......

those are two very differnt things, in fact they are night and day different,a dn in the latter case, like with the zenji needles of the mistryl guards, here the weapon gives str+3d+1 when specialized and str +1D when not, if you then rais the skill to

Thrown wepon 4D
Thrown Weapon Zenji Needles 5D

Not official rules. These are fan rules, and IMHO not well written for these weapons. I would urge not using them. If you must have these weapons, then go with the concepts presented in the RAW regarding rare or unusual weapons being more difficult to use by having a higher base difficulty. This is well established with many officially published weapons and rules in many WEG Star Wars books and supplements.

Getting not only a lower difficulty as well as damage bonuses in addition to having a higher skill die code for a required specialization is multi-dipping and power gaming.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From offical WEG suppliment Gundark......pg 15

Zenji Needles ( I think related to mistryl and the tapani books )

pg 15:

Zenji Needles
Model: Custom-made Mistryl zenji needles
Type: Throwing needles
Scale: Character
Skill: Thrown weapons: zenji needles
Cost: Not available for sale
Availability: 4
Damage: STR+3D+ I when used with thrown weapons: zenji
needles specialization, otherwise STR+ ID



As stated here black on white and by RAW, since this is an offical suppliment, here you will lose all benefits of the Specialization if you now raise the main skill to be equal or higher than the specialization score


Thrown weapon 4D
Thrown Weapons-Zenji Needles: 5D
Damage with Weapon STR + 3D+1

Then raising the general skill, meaning toy get better at throwing ALL weapons, you actually loose 2D strength on the weapon.

I can only reason this bny some memory loss, forgetting techniques or something odd.

OR it is meant that (maybe mentioned somewhere in some book IDK) that once you have picked up a specialization and use and item that comes with a secialization bonus then you can use this always after having learned it.

so the Above will still raise the skill to 5D and loose the Zenji spec, but keep the techniques in memeory since well it makes sense and then acutally keep the specialization damage.

if never specialized the damage is always STR + 1D+1

This is one such incident where the sepcialization "loss" makes little to no sense at all.

I can not for the life of me imagine that if I put my scoped hunting rifle in the safe and then train shooting for the next year or so I am sure I will not in any way forget how the scop wirks, or what is the barrel and stock.....
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Mamatried, I do not currently have access to that book (it is in storage with most of my collection) - if that is there, I stand corrected, but will still call that poorly written by whoever wrote it(and would very much like to consult the fluff to see the justification given to a damage boost related to having a specialization). However that does not have anything about the difficulty being lower or higher either, and that is not the double bladed lightsaber your OP and replies were primarily about, which only exists in fan stats (and too many versions to count at that).

As has already been said by others, raising your core skill above the specialization does not make you lose your specialization or forget anything. You still have the specialization - you just use the higher die code of the core skill to hit.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@KageRyu

yes the debate came up with what is a fan write up I belive of the double bladed lightsaber, it is sort of what triggered but there are some other weapons that also have -abilies and bonuses- when specialized.

the book by the way Gundark, is in the library here I belive. (the red gundark book)


I also agree that the damage bonus is insanely high

I do however belive that some of the double balded and even the tonfa ting something lightsaber are both actually applied bilities like this, and I belive in d20 official scourses thout there is no spcialization system there so it may well be a conversion error

I jusr checked with force unleashed d20 WEG supliment and looked at the tonfa thing, took a while remembering it was named guard shoto, but I found it, it is there a weapon you can use weapon focus on etc, and when you are skilled in that weapon the weapon grants +2 to blok and defend in the d20 system, I can easily see this translate to a +5 to parry in D& and a weapon needing a spaeciality of the skill to use since it is special and exotic to say the least.

Double lightsaber also has some bouses in the d20 systrem so it matches pretty well I would thing, and it again bring me back to the bonuses and becooming more proficient in the skill only to be "worse" and ike with the super op needle things any damage or bonus, I am a better lightsaber combatant so I forgot how to use my weapon to defend, but I could before....
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
@KageRyu

yes the debate came up with what is a fan write up I belive of the double bladed lightsaber, it is sort of what triggered but there are some other weapons that also have -abilies and bonuses- when specialized.

While Gundark is official it technically is not RAW it's a sourcebook. I looked up the book and I remember Gundark's. I remember being underwhelmed and even a bit annoyed by it as it had a lot of bad write ups. I looked at those Zenji Needles, and the fluff does not justify the damage increase, and I would simply throw that out for a number of reasons: 1) There is no justification for a damage bonus for having a specialization and this was not the intent of Specializations in the core rules. 2) A Vibro-Axe does STR+2D and a 2-handed Vibro-Sword from another book does STR+3D - Zenji Needles are bassicly just under 4 inch weighted throwing darts...there is no way they do more than a good throwing knife or hatchet. 3)there is nothing in the write up about being powered, vibro, poisoned, or special materials either. It's just a bad write up.


Quote:
I also agree that the damage bonus is insanely high

Yes. Though it is an official WEG source I would recommend throwing the damage bonus out. If the whole "They are deadly in the right hands" must be reflected, allow someone who is specialized to do a called shot for higher difficulty but extra damage as is in later D6 books (D6 Space).

Quote:
I do however belive that some of the double balded and even the tonfa ting something lightsaber are both actually applied bilities like this, and I belive in d20 official scourses thout there is no spcialization system there so it may well be a conversion error

I do recall a lot of fan written weapons, especially for Jedi, and especially d20 conversions, having all sorts of crazy bonuses and damage boosts tied to required skill levels. D20 is a completely different rules set and mentality of play, based off old D&D, and damage bonus and weapon levels were not uncommon - but this does not translate well to D6 as it is not D6's style of rules. They are incompatible. I had seen 1 write up for the Double Bladed lightsabers once that was rules light. I do not remember it exactly, but it was something like:
Double Bladed Lightsaber
Skill: Lightsaber, Lightsaber:Double Bladed
Difficulty: Very Difficult
Damage: 5D (plus Control)
Special:All normal Lightsaber rules apply. In Addition, this blade can recover from swings and blocks faster and if used with training involves fluid and circular movements. This weapon may attack and parry in the same round. If just attacking or just parrying in a round, the wielder gains a +1D to all skill rolls for that round.

These rules were very similar to rules for dual wielding Lightsabers, and put them on an even field I felt.

However - Now that I better understand your questions and point of view and context of your game - No, defaulting to a higher core skill should not negate that you still slotted a specialization initially. Though, theoretically, and argument could be made by a GM that since you are defaulting to a broader knowledge base you do suffer the ill effects of not using the specialization. It really comes down to a GMs interpretation on this. I would likely leave it up to a coin toss to keep the final ruling impartial as I can see both arguments having some valid points.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 1:52 am    Post subject: Re: Specialization question Reply with quote

KageRyu wrote:
Yes, if you raise your base skill above a specialization, then you would use the base skill as your Die Code. I do not know WHY WEG did not have raising a base skill also raise the specializations as raising an attribute does, but they did not. You do not lose your specialization or forget your skills - they still apply.


I can possibly understand why the attribute boost, also increase the skill(s) under it. As you;'re paying so much for that. BUT since specializations are already so cheep to raise, i CAN'T however, see just raising the base skill, then also raise the specialty...

KageRyu wrote:
What "bonuses"? The only bonus for specializations is that they are easier to raise (half the cost of normal) so it is easier to get them to higher die codes faster. They provide no other special bonuses, so there is nothing to lose.


I think what he's on about is, some weapons, have a notation that "when used by someone specialized, the diff to use is lessened, OR the damage incfreases", like with Zjinni needles.. A normal guy using them, just does Str +1d damage. Where as a person specialized with them, does Str+3d...

I'v seen some DM's have it where he has you Explain WHY you're raising your base skill, IF YOU DO have a specialty. AND if you can't explain it other than "I want to", he nixes it..
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:32 am    Post subject: Re: Specialization question Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I'v seen some DM's have it where he has you Explain WHY you're raising your base skill, IF YOU DO have a specialty. AND if you can't explain it other than "I want to", he nixes it..

I don't do that. I just remind players of the arithmetic involved. Since PCs can be created with specializations, I explain the math of it in Session Zero. In char gen it is a little bit better deal, because specializations cost one-third of the cost of allocating to skill dice to skills, when after play begins specializations cost one-half the cost of improving skills. I always remind a player at any point they decide to specialize. It is still a wasted character-building resource if they might ever improve the base skill later on, so I ask them to consider if they might ever want to improve the base skill later.

In the past these discussions have lead to someone's house rule where experience points spent on specializations aren't lost if the player decides to improve the base skill – they all go toward the improvement of the base skill so they only need top spend "the other half" of the skill points to catch the base skill up. I don't do that because it would encourage more specialization (getting a partial benefit at a lower cost sooner and later getting the full benefit at the same net cost it would have cost to get the full benefit without the partial benefit first).

Overspecializing is a form of low grade min-maxing, and I would rather PCs don't specialize much. There will always be more general needs come up; a PC may not always have access to his preferred type of blaster weapon or spaceship. In my game, they are usually better off not overdoing specializations. I like the wasted cost factor serving as a detergent to overspecializing and early specializing. But I don't want to eliminate the option completely, because it is a method of really fine-tuning a character concept if needed.
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