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MadPreacher
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:41 pm    Post subject: [What NOT to do here] Reply with quote

My Version of Force and Force Powers

I wrote this for an upcoming WEG SW game I'm running to make force users to follow roughly the same mechanics as non-force characters. Feel free to critique and criticize them.

Force and Force Powers New Mechanics

Force Skills Are Now Attributes

Force skills are renamed to Force Attributes. The cost to buy and improve these attributes is identical to the other attributes. It takes 10 Character Points to purchase 1D of the skill with a teacher. Without a teacher the cost is 20 Character Points. The attribute is improved at a rate of one pip at a time. The Character Point cost is the number before the “D” times 10 with a teacher or times 20 without one.

For force attributes, the training time is one week per Character Point spent if the character has a teacher. Without a teacher, the training time is two weeks per Character Point. A character must train to improve their Force Attributes, but the training time is reduced one day per additional Character Point spent (minimum of one week training).

When a Force Attribute is improved, all Force Powers under that attribute (except powers that use multiple Force Attributes) also increase by one pip. Force Powers that use multiple Force Attributes can only be raised when all of the governing attributes are raised to the same amount.

For example, in order for Accelerate Another’s Healing to gain the benefit of an attribute increase would require a character’s Control and Alter to be the same value. Thus, a character must raise his Control 1D and Alter 1D to Control 1D+1 and Alter 1D+1 for Accelerate Another’s Healing to have 1D+1.

Force Powers Are Now Skills

Force powers are now the same as Advanced skills, but follow the standard rules for gaining new powers.

Learning Force Skills:

Each die learned in a Force Attribute allows the character to learn one force skill under the appropriate attribute.

A character may be taught a new skill each time a Force Attribute is improved one pip.

A character may be taught a new Force Skill without improved a Force Attribute, but the character must spend ten Character Points.

A skill that uses two Attributes – Control and Sense – counts as two skills when being taught skills.

Improving Force Skills

To improve Force Skills, the character will follow the rules for improving Advanced skills. Thus, to improve an advanced skill is two times the number before the “D”.

The time to improve the skill, with a teacher, is one week training for every Character Point spent to improve the Force Skill. If the character doesn’t have a teacher, then the training time is two weeks for every Character Point spent to improve the skill.

Characters can reduce the training time by spending one Character Point per day cut from the training time. The minimum training time for a Force Skill is always one week.

Force skills are capped to 1D above their Force Attribute. In order to advance the skill, they need to get stronger with the force.

Using Force Skills

Force Skills now follow the standard rules for regular skills. No longer are powers rolled using the multiple Attributes. They use their own skill roll now. The modifiers and other aspects of the Skills are not changed.

EDIT: Link to the Force Powers Sheet to help people grasp this.

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AhQ2Of4bscDGhv5OS4b46TPlk_OTZg?e=MepPb2

Copy and paste the URL into your web browser. It will open up a pdf.


Last edited by MadPreacher on Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:45 pm; edited 3 times in total
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If C/S/A are now attributes, and the powres themselves, are now '(A) skills Under said attribute, how does that change how they are learned? Do they still pay double if they have no master?
How does C/S add to the to hit pool/damage, for using LS combat?
What of danger sense??
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MadPreacher
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
If C/S/A are now attributes, and the powres themselves, are now '(A) skills Under said attribute, how does that change how they are learned? Do they still pay double if they have no master?
How does C/S add to the to hit pool/damage, for using LS combat?
What of danger sense??


RE Learning: Force powers are now the same as Advanced skills, but follow the standard rules for gaining new powers.

RE Double: No, you use the rules for improving advanced skills. It's literally under Improving Force Skills heading.

RE C/S: The damage and hit pool use the actual skill to be split up evenly.

RE Danger Sense: You'd roll the dice you have for Danger Sense instead of Control.

Whenever a power says to use C/S/A you use the dice you've assigned to the power itself just like you would use the dice in blasters to shoot something. The force powers are functionally identical to skills and puts them inline with the rest of the system.

Everything you asked is in the rules posted.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if someone had the LS skill at 5d, control 3d, sense 3d+2, which would be the 'pool' he would split up for damage/to hit..?
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MadPreacher
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
So if someone had the LS skill at 5d, control 3d, sense 3d+2, which would be the 'pool' he would split up for damage/to hit..?


Quote:
Using Force Skills

Force Skills now follow the standard rules for regular skills. No longer are powers rolled using the multiple Attributes. They use their own skill roll now. The modifiers and other aspects of the Skills are not changed.


That covers the basics of this. Every question you asked has been already covered in the rules.

Since Lightsaber Combat is now a skill that adheres to the standard skill system the base skill is 3D before you assign dice to it like a regular skill. In order for the skill to be able to have 3D+2 you need to have both governing attributes of Control and Sense at 3D+2. You get to split that 3D up between your to-hit and damage.

I don't see why you're having trouble understanding what I wrote and are asking silly questions like these.

Control, Sense, and Alter are now Attributes. Every Force Power is now a skill that falls under those attributes and start at the attribute's base level. You increase them like you would regular skills, but with the restriction that Force Skills are capped at 1D above the Attribute.

If your character has Control, Sense, and Alter at 1D the most they can have in any single Force Skill is 2D.

Remember, Force Powers are now Force Skills.
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pakman
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, thanks for sharing.

I have been working on something similar for a while, and some discussions here (force powers as advanced skills).

FORCE ATTRIBUTE

I did it slightly differently;
* I made Force an attribute.
* Control, sense and alter are skills under Force.
* Powers are advanced skills, with requirements in control sense and alter.

LEARNING FORCE POWERS
They get a free power when they learn Control, sense or alter the first time, depending on force tradition (jedi order, sith, Jensaarai, nightsisters, wilder etc.).

After that learning or advancing any force power is EXACTLY the same as any other advanced skill. (training, cost, etc.).

SIMPLIFIED POWERS
I have also simplified the powers, so that each power has only one primary Skill (control, sense, alter) and requires only one roll.

To do this, I took the powers and looked at the control, sense and alter requirements, used the highest difficulty for the controling skill, and the others just became requirements.

For example;

Accelerate healing
It only had a control difficulty, and it was easy. easy is the second level in difficulty, so I made it have a requirement of a Skill bonus of 2D in Control.

Lightsaber combat
Requirement: Control 3D, Sense 2D.
Player rolls Control for activating it.
Its duration is Concentration(2).

That means it costs 2 actions to maintain.

(concentration is my term for "keep up".

CONCLUSION

Anyway, always nice to see what others have come up with - I am sure I can learn somethings form your system. I had some slightly different goals, but it is very cool to see other ideas.

now, I have not play tested this, but have tried to keep it as close to the spirit of the rules, while trying to streamline and normalize things.

Once i get mine ironed out bit more, I will post it in it's own thread.
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MadPreacher
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank ya for the feedback and reply.

Your system is a bit more crunchy than mine. It's pretty good.

My goal was to unify the force with the rest of the skill system while maintaining the simplicity at the core of D6. This also helps cut down on the force user domination at higher dice pool levels. Consider powers that need up two or three skills makes that power the equivalent of the total dice. So if you have a character with 10D in Control, 10D+1 in Sense, and 11D in Alter the skills could have between 20D+1 up to 31D+1 in the dice pool. Non-force characters can't compete. The best you can get is only a single skill dice pool for it.

By making Control, Sense, and Alter attributes with the powers becoming skills you've just equalized a force user with a non-force user. The force user has only one pool of dice for that skill.

To further balance the powers, by making them advanced skills they cost double over what non-force characters have to pay. That's due to how powerful force powers are.

I still haven't decided if learning on your own should be disallowed or not. That's mainly due to the first force users in the EU not having teachers themselves and had to learn on their own. Luke also had to learn on his own after he left Yoda in ESB and after Yoda's death in RotJ. Also, the words of Yoda in ESB echoes in my mind.

Quote:
You will know. When you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.


In my mind, it states that the Force teaches one knowledge. That must mean that teachers are not needed to learn, so they function as per the rules on making training faster. It's the same with other skills in that the time is increased to master it without a teacher.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MadPreacher wrote:

I don't see why you're having trouble understanding what I wrote and are asking silly questions like these.
.


Because i am trying to understand.. To YOU it may seem clear, to others it may not be.
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
MadPreacher wrote:

I don't see why you're having trouble understanding what I wrote and are asking silly questions like these.
.


Because i am trying to understand.. To YOU it may seem clear, to others it may not be.


Exactly. I am struggling to reconcile this new version with the RAW, but if people want to understand and ask clarifying questions, it is better to rephrase rather than repeat the exact same words and/or give examples. Certainly don't call the questions 'silly'.

The main issue I have with many of these alternate Force rules is that they require a ton more character points to get the Force abilities anywhere useful. That is not an improvement IMO.
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MadPreacher
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
garhkal wrote:
MadPreacher wrote:

I don't see why you're having trouble understanding what I wrote and are asking silly questions like these.
.


Because i am trying to understand.. To YOU it may seem clear, to others it may not be.


Exactly. I am struggling to reconcile this new version with the RAW, but if people want to understand and ask clarifying questions, it is better to rephrase rather than repeat the exact same words and/or give examples. Certainly don't call the questions 'silly'.

The main issue I have with many of these alternate Force rules is that they require a ton more character points to get the Force abilities anywhere useful. That is not an improvement IMO.


I most certainly will call the questions silly when I wrote it clear enough for a 5 year old to understand.

His questions were answered in the rules and I did give clear examples how it works.

These rules replace RAW. That is clearly stated, so there is no reconciliation needed.

Learning force skills do not require a ton of character points under these rules to be useful. You can claim it, but it follows the standard rules for Attributes and Skills. Are they overpriced as well? Is (A)Medicine too expensive to learn? Are any other Advanced skills too expensive? I'd love to hear you say that they are since that's what these rules use.
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MadPreacher, I realize you are very new to this forum, but you are not engratiating yourself with your tone. This is a friendly forum and a place for civil and respectful discussion. If you do not follow the forum guidelines and be respectful, you will not be welcome here.
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MadPreacher
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
MadPreacher, I realize you are very new to this forum, but you are not engratiating yourself with your tone. This is a friendly forum and a place for civil and respectful discussion. If you do not follow the forum guidelines and be respectful, you will not be welcome here.


I never disrespected anyone and I never used any tone that you accused me of. You inferring tone from written text is entirely on you.

However, it is extremely noticeable that I am not welcome here.
I posted my rules up here for feedback from one of the oldest WEG Star Wars community because I had respected the users here.
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MadPreacher wrote:

I don't see why you're having trouble understanding what I wrote and are asking silly questions like these.
...
I most certainly will call the questions silly when I wrote it clear enough for a 5 year old to understand.


Exhibits A and B for reference. If you do not see how saying someone's question is silly and that a 5 year old can understand it, I don't know what else to say. You came to this group out of respect to the years of collective knowledge, as most of us do, but you did not show respect.

You can take that for what it is and check yourself so we can move on and discuss a game we all love as adults... Or you can double down on your stance and feign shock for being called out as rude. I suspect I already know your choice.
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MadPreacher
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
MadPreacher wrote:

I don't see why you're having trouble understanding what I wrote and are asking silly questions like these.
...
I most certainly will call the questions silly when I wrote it clear enough for a 5 year old to understand.


Exhibits A and B for reference. If you do not see how saying someone's question is silly and that a 5 year old can understand it, I don't know what else to say. You came to this group out of respect to the years of collective knowledge, as most of us do, but you did not show respect.

You can take that for what it is and check yourself so we can move on and discuss a game we all love as adults... Or you can double down on your stance and feign shock for being called out as rude. I suspect I already know your choice.


Thanks for showing that you created a strawman and took my words out of context.

The question I was asked is, "So if someone had the LS skill at 5d, control 3d, sense 3d+2, which would be the 'pool' he would split up for damage/to hit..?"

The reply was already in the rules and I quoted that exact rule. Hence the comment why the question was silly since it was already answered in the rules. That means that the question was asked by someone that didn't read the original post.

As for the 5 year old can understand comment, that was to show that I wrote it clear enough that anyone can understand it. You also took that out of context when the entire conversation was about how the person couldn't square the new rules within the context of the existing rules. These rules replace the current rules, so RAW doesn't apply. It even says so. Thus, the entire questions were silly and decidedly made things far more complex then what I actually wrote.

The only person here that is doing damage is you. You are creating problems that are not there. I'm not sorry for being honest. Now I've requested to have my account deleted because of YOUR actions and you not wanting me here. Enjoy your ivory tower.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:32 pm    Post subject: What NOT to do Reply with quote

garhkal, I'm sorry I missed the OP getting unreasonable last night, and I was too busy all day to do anything more than lock the thread this afternoon, until now.

Dr. Bidlo, please see my reply to your PM.

MadPreacher wrote:
I would like to have my account deleted after being made unwelcome by your members. I was intentionally trolled in the rules I posted for Force and Force Powers to get feedback on. The intentional trolling was asking questions that were already answered in the rules and failing to read what I wrote.

You can all read the above thread. I emphasized a few things, but you can all clearly see here that how MadPreacher characterized this thread is not at all what was actually happening. He was not being trolled (or strawmanned).

If someone asks a question you think has an obvious answer, try not to say that. I know there are several times I caught myself typing "Obviously..." in my replies and had to edit it out before I hit Submit. MadPreacher demonstrated a full on cognitive distortion (that I have a bit of experience with someone in my life) that's sometimes known as "mind reading," where you assume others just know exactly what you mean. It all makes perfect sense in your head, but you don't take any responsibility for others not understanding you. It frustrates you when people don't get it the first time they say it. MadPreacher eventually went so extreme with it as to invent a conspiracy theory that garhkal and Bidlo really completely understood him and only pretended they didn't just to troll him. Now that is silly. If people express confusion, reword your idea.

MadPreacher was, well, mad. He said he respected the users here, but that was a lie. When someone expresses they don't understand and your reply to that is that a small child could have understood you, you are basically calling them a child. That is disrespectful and it's really sad that MadPreacher doesn't understand that. And in the end, of course, according to him everyone else is to blame. If you think everyone else is a jerk but you, odds are you are the jerk. MadPreacher was the only one being a jerk here. At his request, his account was banned.


(And as a friendly reminder, if anyone has any problem with any of my wording in a post of mine, please politely PM me and ask for an edit. Thanks.)
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