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Parry
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Savar
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:51 pm    Post subject: Parry Reply with quote

How many to simplify things removed the parry skills?

How did it work out?
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I ran again, I think I might.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:19 am    Post subject: Re: Parry Reply with quote

Savar wrote:
How many to simplify things removed the parry skills?

How did it work out?

I just combined them with their attack skill (meaning Melee includes melee parrying and Brawling includes brawling parrying). It's worked fine.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This combination was "suggested" in 2nd Edition Revised & Expanded as Lighsaber skill was used for both, attack and defense.
It a good option. Speeds up the combat and allows players to invest their CP to another areas of expertise. Wink
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a note: the new Zorro game does away with rolled defenses entirely; your Parry rating is your Agility times 5, and covers melee; your dodge skill is Perception * 5, and covers ranged.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
As a note: the new Zorro game does away with rolled defenses entirely; your Parry rating is your Agility times 5, and covers melee; your dodge skill is Perception * 5, and covers ranged.


And as a static it remains unaffected by MAP replacing the range/base difficulty to hit?
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
As a note: the new Zorro game does away with rolled defenses entirely; your Parry rating is your Agility times 5, and covers melee; your dodge skill is Perception * 5, and covers ranged.


And as a static it remains unaffected by MAP replacing the range/base difficulty to hit?


Yep.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My current theory is keeping attack and defense skills separate, but folding Parry into a more general Defense skill so that it covers a broader range of defensive actions, including evasions. Martial Art Forms would be Advanced Skills with Attack and Defense as prerequisites.

While I am a fan of the Dueling Blades concept of a single skill roll representing a full round of combat, someone (Bren, IIRC), made a suggestion of applying that rule to both attack and defense, so that a character can concentrate on one or the other, but suffers a -1D MAP if attempting to do both in the same round.

What I am considering is folding Melee Parry and Brawling Parry into a single Defense skill, especially seeing as how the 2R&E RAW already allows Brawling Parry to defend against Melee Attacks, and Melee Parry to defend against Brawling attacks, subject to Difficulty modifiers.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it depends greatly on the intended style of play, if meant to be mostly narrative or meant to be more dice rolling as well.


Example: A parry or a block IS an attack of sorts, the attack of the opponents weapon, in melee this is a shiled vs a knife, sword vs sword, in braling this using arms and legs vs arms and legs

To me removing this in some way takes away the intetion of a parry or defense, to "prevent an attack that would otherwise hit"

Now if we comapre with more narrative systems they have all the parries and block under a total defense of sort, where the comat is meant to be narrated out much more than being supported by dice.

I personally find this lacking unless with a very very experienced table, and I find it lacking because you do -not- actually prevent any attack that would otherwise hit you, but you are simply so and so difficult to hit.

so to me both parry and block ( other interchangable) is two skills that is must have for me, BUT they can be simplified.

I see no need for a parry and a hit skill, much like in melee and bawling here, if you are proficinet with a sword, then this skill is applied to any situation where you use a sword, not just attack or defense, as that makes no sense what so ever.

Roman soldier were trained in the use of a swors and a shileld, they trained in the -use-of this, and -use- included both defense and attacks, some due to reflexes could be slightly quicker than others, but they are still using only one skill, their weapon skill, sword in this case

Now that a jedi can block blaster bolts and others can not.................are we sure other's can not, if they are skilled with the weapon, why not.


Naturally there are weapons like shields that are mainly for defensive use, but sued in offense they will deal a punch even kill.

the spartan shield ( not justhis skill in doing so) was designed so that the edge could be used for thrusts, even killing blows, however they trained at the technique, but not as a distict seperate skill,

you would never find anyone barely able to use a shiled but a master of shieldbashing.....not he alos a master of the shiled in every way.

same goes with any weapon in melee

However a jedi through the force will "boost" this ability, make it look andmaybe feel simple to the user, but that is the force, not the skill.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

What I am considering is folding Melee Parry and Brawling Parry into a single Defense skill, especially seeing as how the 2R&E RAW already allows Brawling Parry to defend against Melee Attacks, and Melee Parry to defend against Brawling attacks, subject to Difficulty modifiers.


Now that i can agree with, more so than just flat out getting rid of the parry skills totally.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah...

I find the idea that a person could have a high skill in melee or brawling parry while at the same time having a very low or *no* skill in melee or brawl pretty hard to swallow.

Is it possible? Anything is possible I suppose...but it's so ridiculous as a concept that the core mechanics of the game shouldn't be set up to support it by default.

It's like having a chewing skill without a swallow skill. Can you have someone who can chew food but not swallow it? Sure, but it would be a pretty special case.

I have Brawl skill count for unarmed attacks of all kinds and defense when unarmed.

Melee is the same but while armed.

But I'm considering collapsing them all together with melee weapons adding modifiers to the attack and defense the way they add modifiers to the STR for damage.

Not sure about it yet.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have too considered using only defense for both melee and brawl, but founf that these need two.

Ifhting with sticks vs stick is one thing, all covered by one set of skill, on set training and though thechniques.

and while you can parry armed attacks unarmed I would not allow this normally, how manny are backhanding a sword blow?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
I have too considered using only defense for both melee and brawl, but founf that these need two.

Ifhting with sticks vs stick is one thing, all covered by one set of skill, on set training and though thechniques.

and while you can parry armed attacks unarmed I would not allow this normally, how manny are backhanding a sword blow?

And yet the RAW has many skills that are broad categories that cover actions that are quite dissimilar in the details. Knives, swords and bullwhips, for example, are all classed as Melee Weapons, yet a character who improves their Melee Combat skill increases their prowess in all these disparate weapons across the board..

Consider the following quotes from the 2R&E Rulebook (page 90):
    "If your character is defending against someone who is unarmed and doesn't have sharp natural weapons, he gets a +5 bonus modifier to his Melee Parry roll."

    "If your character is using Brawling Parry in defending against someone who is attacking with a weapon or sharp natural tools, the attacker gets a +10 bonus modifier to his attack roll."
Defending against attacks isn't just about parrying a sword with another sword; it includes side-stepping or twisting out of the way of an attack. However, if the defending character is unarmed against an unarmed attacker, this limits his defensive options (as in, he can't easily parry, and must try to avoid the attacks), which is represented by an increase in Difficulty for the unarmed party.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
But I'm considering collapsing them all together with melee weapons adding modifiers to the attack and defense the way they add modifiers to the STR for damage.

I've considered something similar; I remember old-school Warhammer considered Melee to be a catch-all for all close-range combat, with bare hands being considered "improvised" weapons (which makes a certain degree of sense, I suppose). My only reservation is that the justification for combining the two could very easily be applied to all the other Dexterity weapon skills. How much different is Blaster from Firearms, after all? Sure, there are differences in the physics involved, but in the end, the shooter is just pointing and shooting at a target, and the mechanics of aiming a blaster bolt vs. a bolt have far more in common than, say, fighting with a spear as opposed to a whip.

If anything, I'm inclined to think Melee Weapons needs to be split into multiple skills rather than combined with Brawling.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have tried out a systems where I use dodge for all non direct parries or blocks.

My Jedi is fighting the sith, both with lightsaber.

the sith rolls and hits, the jedi noe either rolls an ATTACK to parry or block and thus negate the damage of the attack, OR he can try to side step or anything NOT directly countering the attack with his own weapon, for this I use dodge.

so a fight will to me be ( and we see this in the movies) attack meets attack=block if they are equal, or the "defender" has highest.
The attack hits if the attacker win the vs roll

in a "passive" defense you are not actively parrying, and IMO is best covered by dodge.
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