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2E Atmospheric Speeds
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:30 pm    Post subject: 2E Atmospheric Speeds Reply with quote

So, this is something I've noticed recently, and while I have some reservations about it, I don't really have a solution. I'll just throw it out as a discussion starter.

Recently, I got curious about the progression of Atmospheric speeds for starships as compared to their Space speeds. While the Space speeds are arithmetic, the Atmosphere speeds are not. What's more, the progression of speed increase is very inconsistent.
    2 = 225; 650kmh
    3 = 260; 750kmh
    4 = 280; 800kmh
    5 = 295; 850kmh
    6 = 330; 950kmh
    7 = 350; 1000kmh
    8 = 365; 1050kmh
    9 = 400; 1150kmh
    10 = 415; 1200kmh
    11 = 435; 1250kmh
    12 = 450; 1300kmh
I looked for but couldn't find a ship with a Space of 1 that also had an Atmosphere rating, but this is as complete a list as I could find. For a better idea of the inconsistencies to which I was referring, there is this:
    2-3 = +35 / +100
    3-4 = +20 / +50
    4-5 = +15 / +50
    5-6 = +35 / +100
    6-7 = +20 / +50
    7-8 = +15 / +50
    8-9 = +35 / +100
    9-10 = +15 / +50
    10-11 = +20 / +50
    11-12 = +15 / +50
The progression begins with an uneven, yet relatively orderly repeating sequence of +35/+100 to +20/+50 to +15/+50, which then repeats once before jumping out of sequence starting at the 9-10 transition. There seems to be no direct connection between the progression of Space values and the increase in Atmosphere values. For example, while an A-Wing (Space 12) is 3 times as fast as a stock YT-1300 (Space 4) in Space, it is only 1.625 times faster in Atmosphere (based on maximum speed in kph; using basic Move values, the difference is ~1.61).

As I said, this is not something I have a solution for, just a general sense that it is wrong. Has anyone else noticed this? If so, did you find a solution that you liked, or was it just not important enough to worry about?

Thoughts?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So should it be a set speed boost, say +20/+50kmh
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure. Any house rule I can think of would require a major re-write of all existing stats, and I try to avoid that.
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion, you're trying to correlate something which does not correlate very well.

Space speeds are only indirectly comparable to Atmospheric speeds. A space fighter, for instance the IRD, was not streamlined for atmospheric flight. The IRD-A, was. Referencing the illustration, it seems that an engine cowling was added, in addition to wings and a rudder.

The streamlining done on the hull would heavily impact the atmospheric performance of any craft. Personally, I suspect that the TIE fighters really should have a heavily degraded performance in atmosphere, something like negating all of their maneuvering dice, and inflicting damage on them if they do high-speed drastic turns (such as two turns in one round while going at several hundred klicks per hour).

Getting from a landing pad to orbit is mostly a matter of thrust and repulsorlifts, and sufficient structural integrity. If all you're capable of is 100 km / h straight up, but you can sustain it for hours upon a time, you'll get to orbit. Eventually.

Getting from the surface to orbit with panache and speed, being able to hold your own in a dogfight, or do some fancy atmospheric maneuvering such as aerobreaking - well, that requires streamlining. And few craft in Star Wars seem to be streamlined.

You could do some handwaving with shields being able to provide streamlining. Perhaps you have a plasma generator that can sheath your craft in plasma, drastically reducing drag. But aerodynamically speaking, an A-wing should outperform a TIE in an atmosphere no matter how you measure it, and a TIE Bomber should have the glide characteristics of a particularly ornate brick).
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point on the type/shape of a ship should impact its speed more so than its space rating.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I was doing my research, I noticed that, while late model Z-95 Headhunters have a Space of 7, their Atmosphere is equal to that of a ship with a Space of 9.

While I agree that ship shape should have been a factor in a ship's Atmosphere, WEG applied it arbitrarily at best, and in only one instance was that application based on official material (the IRD). In the other two cases (the Arakyd Helix and the Skipray Blastboat), the penalty was applied to Maneuverability, not Atmosphere.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speed in general, seems to be arbitrarily decided for most canon ships.
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This might help.

In an atmosphere, the atmospheric drag is the major factor that limits vehicle speed. If everything else is equal then atmospheric speed should increase at the square root of the Thrust-to-Mass ratio (i.e. Space Speed). So a ship that was 3 times as fast as another in space should be about 1.73 times as fast in an atmosphere.

Now, usually everything else isn't equal. Things like streamlining and lift provided by the vehicle can affect it's speed, to name just a couple of factors. Add in the fact that the speeds in the RAW appear to be rounded off, and the 1.625 factor is reasonable.

If you use KPH= (square root of SPACE)*317+177 and round off to the nearest increment of 50 you get:

1 = 175; 500kmh
2 = 225; 650kmh
3 = 260; 750kmh
4 = 280; 800kmh
5 = 315; 900kmh
6 = 330; 950kmh
7 = 350; 1000kmh
8 = 365; 1050kmh
9 = 400; 1150kmh
10 = 415; 1200kmh
11 = 435; 1250kmh
12 = 450; 1300kmh

which matches up with the RAW, with the sole exception of SPACE 5. Not too shabby, right?

I could probably tweak the conversion factor a bit to try and get a better correlation, too. Part of the problem here is that the RAW rounds off the MOVE and KPH scores and it throws off the conversion a bit.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Works for me. Plus, it's not like there are a lot of Space 5 ships floating around in the WEG material, so that's an easy fix.
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. I am still working on a vehicle design system, so I've already gone over some of this ground. It gives me a head start with something like this pops up.

I believe that with the way ship are statted out, we could use my conversion method without actually changing anything. Streamlining and other considerations could easily account for the 6% drop in speed.

And if I reverse engineered KPH to SPACE and tweaked the formula slightly, I could get it so 850kph would fit into the SPACE 5 range.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Works for me. Plus, it's not like there are a lot of Space 5 ships floating around in the WEG material, so that's an easy fix.


Take another guess! Just using the Complete starship PDF, i find the following ships all at Space 5.

Kuat Systems Engineering S40K Phoenix Hawk Light Pinnacle (starships of the galaxy)
Shobquix Yards Toscan 8-Q Starfighter (alliance intel reports, pirates and privateers)
Incom/Subpro Z-95 Mark I Headhunter (Planets collection 1)
Corellian Light Attack Fighter-250 (cracken's threat dossier)
Koensayr BTS-A2 H-Wing (challenge magazine, so not sure if would count as a WEG sourcebook)
SoroSuub 1550-LEX Space Yacht (adventure journal 13)
SoroSuub Luxury 3000 (Essential guide to vehicle and vessels, Pirates and privateers)
Corellian Engineering Corporation Barloz-class Freighter (stock ships)
Sienar Fleet Systems Anxarta-class Light Freighter (no listing of where from)
Kuat Systems Engineering Wayfarer-class Medium Transport (from a polyhedron mag)
Selonian Hunchzuc Den Coneship (Crackens threat dossier, Coruscant and the core worlds)
Stalwart-class Light Freighter (pirates and privateers)
Kazellis Corporation Light Freighter (stock ships and pirates and privateers)
Subla Ransom Cargo Hauler (Pirates and privateers)
Hyrotil Crescent-class Transport, Mark II (stock ships, Pirates and privateers)
Starfeld Industries ZH-25 Questor (stock ships, Pirates and privateers)
Mon Calamari A-Z-Z-3 Light Freighter (supernova module)
Corellian Engineering Corp. FA-504s Transport (wizards website)
Arden Industries Model 47 Spitrolighter (politics of contraband)
Corellian Engineering Corporation YV-929 Armed Freighter (NJO sourcebook)
Damorian Manufacturing X46-7-class Ore Carrier (operation Elrood)
Arakyd Stellar Mag V Mining Vessel (supernova module)
KDY Class-7 Repair Vessel (supernova module)
Tykannin Drive Redthorn-class Scout Ship (planets collection)
SoroSuub MKI Mining Survey Vessel (Tapani sector instant adventure)
Royal Yvarema Scout Ship (Darkstryder campaign, Kathol rift book)
Sienar Fleet Systems �Lone Scout-A� (Scouts book, Base book)
Sienar Fleet Systems TIE/sr �Lone Scout-B� (no source book listed)
Incom Corporation �Explorer� Scout Ship (Galaxy guide 10, wanted by cracken)
Republic Engineering Corporation Prowler-class Reconnaissance Vessel (Crackens threat dossier)
BullbaBong BB-2 Shuttle (Wizards website)
Trade Federation Sheathipede-class Lapiz Cutter Shuttle (secrets of naboo)
Republic Sienar Systems BR-23 Courier (rules of engagement)
Republic Sienar Systems Kappa-class Shuttle (rules of engagement)
Sienar Fleet Systems Tribune-class Shuttle (Goroth; slaves of the empire module)
Sienar Fleet Systems Shuttle (Many books!)
Sienar Fleet Systems Mu-2 Long Range Shuttle (scouts)
Sienar Fleet Systems Mu-3 Shuttle (rules of engagement)
Kuat Systems Engineering Firespray-class Patrol Vessel (Pirates and privateers)
Imperial Customs Frigate (far orbit project, Pirates and privateers)
Kuat Drive Yards Law-class Light Patrol Craft (far orbit project, Pirates and privateers)
Corellian Engineering Corporation INT-66 (Adventure journal 4)
Iskallon Light Frigate (Twin stars of Kira module)
Sienar Fleet Systems VT-49 Decimator Assault Ship (no mention of where from)
Modified Royal Yvarema Scout Ship (Darkstryder: endgame)
Ssi-ruuvi Fw�Sen-class Picket Ship (Truce at Bakura, Essential guide to vehicles and vessels)
Kuat Drive Yard�s B-12 Transport (lords of the expanse, Tapani sector; instant adventures)
SoroSuub Corp. Ferryboat Liner (no source listed)

And that's it for Fighter/freighter/scout ships/shuttles and such. I didn't even get into capital scale.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And I thought I had too much time on my hands...
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should see how much time i spend on one of my ADND sites.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Garhkal, we all love you very much, but you have a problem....

Wink
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Take another guess! Just using the Complete starship PDF, i find the following ships all at Space 5....

And that's it for Fighter/freighter/scout ships/shuttles and such. I didn't even get into capital scale.


That's an impressive list!

I noticed that most are either older designs, or transport craft. So they could be a bit less aerodynamic. Maybe that's where the other 50kph is being lost?

As far as capital scale ships go, most don't spend much time in an atmosphere, and they would almost certinaly be slowed down due to drag.
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