Telekinesis and the dark side

[Urban Spaceman]

Checking up on some Force Power rules the other day, I noticed that using Telekinesis to attack someone with an object is deemed worthy of an automatic Dark Side Point.

Anyone else think that seems a little harsh?

I mean, there's obviously a difference between using a small rock to try and knock someone out, or trying to drop a landspeeder on someones head.
So an automatic DSP seems a little overboard, personally.

Using it for a small object doesn't seem that much different than picking up a rock or pebble and throwing it by hand, to me.
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"The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't."

[Bren]

That's standard WEG rules.

My thoughts - DSPs are not about effect so much as intent.

Using TK and Alter skills generally that damage a living opponent are (according to WEG RAW) of the Dark Side.

Some powers such as Force Lightning or Telekinetic Kill give you a dark side point just for using the power. Even if you use Force Lightning to fry the assassin droid who is about to kill the helpless baby heir to the throne of Alderaan - you still get a DSP. Because to even invoke the power you need to be so filled with rage, anger, fear, etc. that you end up with a DSP.

Now using Telekinesis to throw an object and smash the assassin droid who is about to kill the ... since the droid is not alive, I as the GM probably won't give a DSP for this, unless the character seems to be invoking fear, anger, etc in the act.

Using Telekinesis to throw an object and smash the evil Sith lord who is about to kill the helpless baby ... yep, you get a DSP for this because the Sith lord is alive. Does this seem harsh? Yeah a bit. Would I as a person think it is an acceptable action. Yes, no doubt. Does the Force accept the action. Nope. No according to WEG.

Now, it is helpful to recall that WEG rules were written without the prequel movies or the Clone Wars cartoons. We mostly only see the bad guys using Telekinesis to harm others, though see Luke with the Gamorreans in Jabba's palace. Also not in the palace using TK to enhance the throw of the rock to trigger the switch to bring the spiked door down to kill the Rancor avoids (on a technicality) a DSP for killing the rancor.

If you want to let your Jedi do things as seen in the pre-Empire period, without racking up the DSPs, you might allow Jedi to get away with more. But I think as a morality handicap and limiting factor to playing a good Jedi, the WEG rules work pretty well and the sometimes bizarre implications help to justify why you need to study from a young age to understand the convoluted rationale for proper light side behavior.

[Praxian]

I would think of it like this:

Why do I want to use TK to attack them, when I can use TK, and suspend them in the air, facing upwards, so that they have no angle to continue attacking, and simply wait for them to give up?

I can use TK and simply out-wait them as opposed to injuring them.

[Urban Spaceman]

Bren: I definately agree that intention should be key, which is why I see a grey area exists here.

Praxian: That's fine, so long as you don't mind everyone knowing that you are there, or what you are doing.
If you want to knock out a guard without him shouting a warning, or if you want to hit someone in order to make them believe that one of their allies threw the rock, then that's the kind of circumstance I'm thinking of.
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"The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't."

[ZzaphodD]

Its the 70-80s Jedi Pacifists*, vs 90-s Jedi Action Hero syndrome.

The WEG rules are rooted in the pacifism idea, while we all have the Action Hero idea from the 'new' movies and EU fresh in mind. You just have to decide what way to go.

Myself Im a bit in between. Sure, when using Force Lighting you will get a DSP, but not one for each time. Telekinesis Im more flexible about. If you wound/knock out someone with TK in a 'just action' Im ok with that. Knocking a guard out with a stone for example, as long as its the least violent solution. However, using TK to squeeze the guards head until he loses conciousness would be deemed to violent even if you got the same result.

In the end its a difficult choice with lots of gray areas. This is quite ok imo, as then the player will never know for sure wheres that line he cant cross is (I never tell a player in advance if his action will result in a DSP).






* Except for cutting peoples arms off with unstoppable energy weapons at bar brawls.
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My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course..

[jmanski]

IMHO it should be case by case, but not as strict as WEG.
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Blasted rules. Why can't they just be perfect?

[garhkal]

[Praxian]

I tend to stand by the raw as it pertains to that. If you even look in some of the newer movies, look at episode 2 when Yoda was faced off against Count Dooku.

Dooku was using TK to try and smash Yoda with something and Yoda just turned it aside. He didn't change the direction so it would land on Dooku, he used TK to move it aside so it wouldn't hurt anyone.

Aside that, I am more "classic 80's" I guess as opposed to all the EU stuff. If the point is to get rid of a guard, there are still other powers (like Mind Trick) to get rid of them so they're not interfering with what you're doing.

Just my 2 creds.

[Random Numbers]

The road to hell is not paved by good intentions...
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Random is who random does...

[jmanski]

[Raven Redstar]

It states in the rules that player characters can decide after dealing damage whether or not they want to kill their opponent. So slashing away with your lightsaber is fine, as long as you're not dishing out death.

If you go around killing with your lightsaber; then using the force to guide your lightsaber, you would gain dark side points. Jedi are supposed to not kill, so force users have to do everything in their power to no kill their opponents.

[Praxian]

[garhkal]

Yup. i actually had one player who spent half an hr b**** cause i gave him 3 DSPS for using LS combat, when by his actions and words.

1) he went into combat peeved and filled with hate for an npc who even gloated to the pc that he finally got him to show emption.
2) while LS combat was up, decapitated 2 of the baddies guards who had ALREADY been knocked out and
3) decaped him after he surrendered....

NOTE the baddie was NOT even force sensitive, let alone any where close to being the threat dooku or palpaltine were...
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[Praxian]

[ZzaphodD]