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garhkal
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 Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:44 am Post subject: |
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Not when you consider a hevy ion cannon is usually the same damage than a light laser cannon.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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It might just be that te base on Hoth had some sort of EM shielding that wasn7t mentoned in the film.
That most of the base was under ice, and that Vader seemed to want prisoners might also have influced the coruse of events. |
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Rerun941
Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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There's a couple of conflicting elements at play here.
In ESB, the fleet could not (or would not) bombard the Rebel Base. Also, a so far unmentioned reference is the planetary shield around Ukio as part of the plot to the Thrawn Trilogy. (which was cleverly brought down, I might add.)
The 2nd Ed rulebook explictly states that starship shields do not protect against ion blasts.
So, either planetary shields do protect against ion blasts and they don't function the same as starship shields.
OR
Planetary shields don't protect against ion blasts and there's some other reason why ions weren't used against planets. (Perhaps an atmosphere renders ion blasts useless by dissipating or absorbing the energy?)
Pick your poison.
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ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Rerun941 wrote: | | Planetary shields don't protect against ion blasts and there's some other reason why ions weren't used against planets. (Perhaps an atmosphere renders ion blasts useless by dissipating or absorbing the energy?) |
But in ESB the Ion cannon can fire out of the atmosphere well into space and knock out a SD. Even if you consider that Ion cannon to be much more powerful than other capital Ion cannons the atmospheric dissipation should lower the damage enough to not completely knock out a SD.
So, we are back at planetary shields being effective against ion weapons. Theres really no reason why they would work exactly like starship shields.
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Rerun941
Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
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Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Rerun941 wrote: | | Planetary shields don't protect against ion blasts and there's some other reason why ions weren't used against planets. (Perhaps an atmosphere renders ion blasts useless by dissipating or absorbing the energy?) |
But in ESB the Ion cannon can fire out of the atmosphere well into space and knock out a SD. Even if you consider that Ion cannon to be much more powerful than other capital Ion cannons the atmospheric dissipation should lower the damage enough to not completely knock out a SD.
So, we are back at planetary shields being effective against ion weapons. Theres really no reason why they would work exactly like starship shields. |
*shrug* I was just offering up another contrived method to explain away not using ions against the rebels.
Personally, I'm with you. Just say that planetary shields work differently than starship shields and therefore protect from Ion blasts... and be done with it.
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Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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We seem to be getting distracted here. The original question was how many Star Destroyers would it take to destroy the planetary shields.
It's quite possible that ion cannons shouldn't ignore shields at all (it always seemed odd to me that they did) and that the ion cannon on Hoth was simply powerful enough to disable a Star Destroyer even with it's shields.
My personal opinion is that six Star Destroyers is insufficient to take down the shields because even if Vader wanter prisoners it would have been fairly easy to target a area of shields that wasn't covering anything important and focus fire on that point unti the generator was overwhelmed.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | My personal opinion is that six Star Destroyers is insufficient to take down the shields because even if Vader wanter prisoners it would have been fairly easy to target a area of shields that wasn't covering anything important and focus fire on that point unti the generator was overwhelmed. |
Also, if 6 SD:s are enough, why design the Torpedo Sphere?
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Esoomian
High Admiral
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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Well six Star Destroyers probably cost more than one Torpedo Sphere but you're right most Imperial military forces are going to have a bunch of Star Destroyers available to them but probably not many Torpedo Spheres.
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Darius
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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Since Raven Redstar has so kindly supplied the stats for the planetary shield, does anybody have the stats for the torpedo sphere handy?
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Nico_Davout wrote: | | Someone in WEG made a mistake long time ago or someone did not coordinate EU at that moment. |
Wouldn't be the last time the EU contradicted the movies or itself.
| ZzaphodD wrote: | But in ESB the Ion cannon can fire out of the atmosphere well into space and knock out a SD. Even if you consider that Ion cannon to be much more powerful than other capital Ion cannons the atmospheric dissipation should lower the damage enough to not completely knock out a SD.
So, we are back at planetary shields being effective against ion weapons. Theres really no reason why they would work exactly like starship shields. |
Remember, | Whill wrote: | | the shield protecting the Rebel base on Hoth wasn't a planetary shield |
| Rerun941 wrote: | | *shrug* ...Just say that planetary shields work differently than starship shields and therefore protect from Ion blasts... and be done with it. |
Thank you for your poignant contibution to the discussion, Rerun!
| ZzaphodD wrote: | | why design the Torpedo Sphere? |
That's easy. The Torpedo Shpere was created so PCs would have a scaled down Death-Star-like battle staton to destroy without necessarily interfering with canon and going up against one of the two actual Death Stars. 8)
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Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6207
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | DefenStar Nyalsan II Planetary Shield
Model: Nyalsan II Planetary Shield
Type: Planetary Defense Shield
Scale: Capital
Skill: Planetary Shields
Crew: 18
Cover: Full
Ammo: Power Generator or Power grid
Cost: 500 million credits
Body: 3D
Shield: 10D
Range: 1/2/3
Difficulty: Easy (Short range or half-planet), Moderate (Medium Range or full Planet), Difficult (Long Range)
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What is long range for the shield? so this would have a shield rating of 10D capital scale or is it just the generator itself that is capital scale?
| darius wrote: | | Since Raven Redstar has so kindly supplied the stats for the planetary shield, does anybody have the stats for the torpedo sphere handy? |
The D6 Holocron site gives us these stats for the Torpedo Sphere
| Quote: | Torpedo Sphere
Craft: Loronar’s Torpedo Sphere
Affiliation: Empire
Era: Rebellion
Source: Lords of the Expanse: Campaign Guide (pages 30-38 ), Imperial Sourcebook (pages 58-59), Starships of the Galaxy (pages 109-110)
Type: Dedicated siege platform
Scale: Capital
Length: 1,900 meters
Skill: Capital ship piloting: Torpedo Sphere
Crew: 61,245, gunners: 2,030, skeleton: 20,415/+15
Crew Skill: Astrogation 3D+2, capital ship gunnery 4D+2, capital ship piloting 3D+2, capital ship shields 4D, sensors 4D+1
Passengers: 8,540 (troops)
Cargo Capacity: 3.8 million metric tons
Consumables: 4 years
Hyperdrive Multiplier: x3
Hyperdrive Backup: x18
Nav Computer: Yes
Space: 2
Hull: 9D+2
Shields: 2D
Sensors:
Passive: 50/1D
Scan: 75/3D
Search: 150/4D
Focus: 5/4D+2
Weapons:
10 Turbolaser Batteries
Fire Arc: Front
Crew: 3
Skill: Capital ship gunnery
Fire Control: 0D
Space Range: 3-15/35/75
Atmosphere Range: 6-30/70/150 km
Damage: 9D
500 Proton Torpedo Tubes
Fire Arc: Front
Crew: 4
Skill: Capital ship gunnery
Fire Control: 2D
Space Range: 2-12/30/60
Atmosphere Range: 4-24/60/120 km
Damage: 9D against planetary shields, 4D against other vessels
The Torpedo Sphere, a dedicated siege platform, is designed to accomplish one mission to knockout a planet's shields. Planetary shields, whether full or partial, protect a world from orbital bombardment. It takes a lot of troops to assault a planet. It is easier and far less expensive to simply pound a planet into submission with the weapons of a Star Destroyer. But planetary shields prevent this. The Torpedo Sphere is a miniature Death Star, covered with thousands of dedicated energy receptors (DERs) designed to analyze shield emissions. Planetary shields are never uniformly even. They experience power anomalies and energy fluctuations just like other mechanical devices. The Torpedo Sphere parks in orbit around a planet and trains its DERs upon the world to search for weak points in the shielding. These weak points rarely exceed more than a 20 percent power drop, but this is enough for the Torpedo Sphere to bring down the shields.The Sphere contains 500 proton torpedo tubes arranged in an inverted conical formation. Surrounding these tubes are 10 heavy turbolaser batteries. The actual destruction of a planet's shields is simple.
The Torpedo Sphere arrives and analyzes the shields. It finds both the weak points and the location of the planet-bound shield generators. The Sphere then fires a salvo of torpedoes that knock a hole in the shield (at a weak point), followed by blasts from the turbolasers to destroy the generators. Then the bombardment of the planet can begin.That is the quick version. In reality, it takes almost a hundred heavy weapons technicians to coordinate the tube launches. The target area rarely exceeds a six meter square. The hole this produces is actually a power surge that only lasts a few microseconds. If the turbolasers have not made their shots in this time, the process must start all over again.The most difficult part of the entire process is determining exactly where the shield generators lie.
Sensors cannot penetrate full planetary shields, so the crew of the Sphere must study the power waves within the shield to determine where the initial power is coming from.There are only six Torpedo Spheres currently in service. They perform only one function, but it is an important one in these times of open rebellion. |
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Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6207
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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Now if we consider the basic Star Destroyer (also from the D6 Holocron site)
| Quote: |
Added by BsdoblivionImperial I Star Destroyer
Craft: Kuat Drive Yards’ Imperial I Star Destroyer
Affiliation: Empire
Era: Rise of the Empire
Source: Core Rulebook (page 252), Imperial Sourcebook (pages 61-62), Star Wars Trilogy Sourcebook SE (pages 138-139), The Star Wars Sourcebook (pages 34-36), Heir to the Empire Sourcebook (pages 128-129), The Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook (page 219), The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels (pages 80-81)
Type: Star Destroyer
Scale: Capital
Length: 1,600 meters
Skill: Capital ship piloting: Star Destroyer
Crew: 36,810, gunners: 275, skeleton: 5,000/+20
Crew Skill: Astrogation 4D, capital ship gunnery 4D+2, capital ship piloting 5D+1, capital ship shields 4D+1, sensors 4D
Passengers: 9,700(troops)
Cargo Capacity: 36,000 metric tons
Consumables: 6 years
Hyperdrive Multiplier: x2
Hyperdrive Backup: x8
Nav Computer: Yes
Maneuverability: 1D
Space: 6
Hull: 7D
Shields: 3D
Sensors:
assive: 50/1D
Scan: 100/3D
Search: 200/4D
Focus: 6/4D+2
Weapons:
60 Turbolaser Batteries
Fire Arc: 20 front, 20 left, 20 right
Crew: 1 (20), 2 (40)
Skill: Capital ship gunnery
Fire Control: 4D
Space Range: 3-15/35/75
Atmosphere Range: 6-30/70/150 km
Damage: 5D
60 Ion Cannons
Fire Arc: 20 front, 15 left, 15 right, 10 back
Crew: 1 (15), 2 (45)
Skill: Capital ship gunnery
Fire Control: 2D+2
Space Range: 1-10/25/50
Atmosphere Range: 2-20/50/100 km
Damage: 3D
10 Tractor Beam Projectors
Fire Arc: 6 front, 2 left, 2 right
Crew: 1 (2), 4 (2), 10 (6)
Skill: Capital ship gunnery
Fire Control: 4D
Space Range: 1-5/15/30
Atmosphere Range: 2-10/30/60 km
Damage: 6D
Starfighter Complement: 72 TIE starfighters
Ground/Air Complement: 20 AT-ATs and 30 AT-STs
Designed by Lira Wessex, daughter of the man who designed the Victory-class Star Destroyer, the Imperial-class Star Destroyer was an engineering and budget-planning nightmare. But the Navy pushed for it and the Emperor demanded it, so the standard Star Destroyer was built.The Imperial Star Destroyer has enough firepower to reduce a civilized world to slag or take on a fleet of lesser enemy vessels. Each carries a full stormtrooper division, complete with assault craft and ablative heat shields for orbital drops, 20 AT-AT and 30 AT-ST walkers for ground assault, and six TIE fighter squadrons for escort and patrol.There are whole star systems whose gross domestic product is less than the cost of a single Imperial Star Destroyer. There are whole nations which, throughout their entire history, do not use as much energy as an Imperial expends to make a single hyperspace jump.To carry out the Emperor's mandate of rule through fear and the swift destruction of opposition, the Imperial-class Star Destroyer is the weapon of choice. By deploying a Star Destroyer and support ships to a system, the Empire can destroy virtually any foe.It is impossible to garrison every world in every system in the Empire, but the Imperial Star Destroyers give the Emperor the ability to project his power anywhere he wishes in a short period of time. These vessels are more than weapons platforms. They also act as space stations, repair docks, and heavy transports for smaller craft. An Imperial-class vessel usually carries combat craft, shuttles, repair and recovery vehicles, landing barges, drop ships, ground assault vehicles, and pre-fabricated garrison bases for immediate deployment.Since its introduction, an improved version of the Star Destroyer has begun to see action. The Imperial II is an upgraded model featuring increased hull shielding and heavier firepower. |
We see it's turbolasers do 5D damage so with standard combining fire rules it should be possible to work out how many Star Destroyers you'd need to destroy the 9D shields in a single volly.
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Yasriia
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 15 Aug 2010
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:16 am Post subject: |
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Despite the fact, that some ion cannons penetrate shield and the planetary shields the Wookieepedia entry of ion cannons states that For instance, they "weren't known...for tight-beam accuracy," to the point that a ground-based ion cannon might hit the defenders own battle stations as well as its intended targets. And how a shot of the ion cannon works, should be valid both ways. So a shot from a star destroyer isn't that accurate either (eg. not hitting the shield generator).
But the most important thing you have to consider is much more obvious. An ion cannon is all about ionized particles. And today in the real world we have something wich is very "ionizing" ever heard of lightnings? Well I'm happy living in a house with a lightning rod. And even a long time ago in a galaxy far away, I can't imagine that technicians can build planetary shield generator but cannot protect them against the electrical discharges of a thunderstorm (or does a planetaryshieldgenerator alter the weather too?).
Just a non-expanded-univers-technobabble-thought. |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | Now if we consider the basic Star Destroyer (also from the D6 Holocron site)...We see it's turbolasers do 5D damage so with standard combining fire rules it should be possible to work out how many Star Destroyers you'd need to destroy the 9D shields in a single volly. |
True for the original ISD. However, if it is an Imp Star Deuce, you would only need one. Since it has
| Quote: | 50 Heavy Turbolaser Batteries
Fire Arc: 20 front, 15 left, 15 right
Crew: 1 (20), 2 (30)
Skill: Capital ship gunnery
Fire Control: 0D
Space Range: 3-15/35/75
Atmosphere Range: 6-30/70/150 km
Damage: 10D
50 Heavy Turbolaser Cannons
Fire Arc: 20 front, 10 left, 10 right, 10 back
Crew: 3
Skill: Capital ship gunnery
251
Fire Control: 1D
Space Range: 3-15/35/75
Atmosphere Range: 6-30/70/150 km
Damage: 7D |
Wouldn't Vader have had at least one or more of the more advanced (ISD-II) ships in his fleet? Also, wasn't the Exectuor (a Super Star Destroyer) also at Hoth? |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| Rerun941 wrote: | | Planetary shields don't protect against ion blasts and there's some other reason why ions weren't used against planets. (Perhaps an atmosphere renders ion blasts useless by dissipating or absorbing the energy?) |
That would make a lot of sense, were it not for the Rebels Ion Cannon. I would expect the planet's ionosphere to play havoc with ion weaponry.
| ZzaphodD wrote: |
But in ESB the Ion cannon can fire out of the atmosphere well into space and knock out a SD. Even if you consider that Ion cannon to be much more powerful than other capital Ion cannons the atmospheric dissipation should lower the damage enough to not completely knock out a SD. |
What if the ISD ion cannon just aren7t designed for fring through an atmopshere? Or just don7t have the range. THe RPB tends to muitple space ranges by 100km, and if so the ISD ion cannons probably wouldn7t be able to reach a surface target from orbit (100km plus).
The Rebel Ion cannon, on the other hand, was probably desiged for shooting ships in orbit and had a longer range.
| ZzaphodD wrote: |
So, we are back at planetary shields being effective against ion weapons. Theres really no reason why they would work exactly like starship shields. |
Oh there is a "reason". But, at with most Star Wars tech, not much sense to the reason. In this case the "reason" was that ships (and Death Starts" had magnetic shields (as per episode IV), and something that was ionized to the opposite charger would not be repelled by the magnetic shield.
Of coruse if that were the case then everbody would give all thier weapons a charge to bypass the shields. Personally, I suspect that the Magnetic shield was the defense against solid objects, not the ray shielding.
It could be that ion guns fire ionized particles rather than rays, and that is why the bypass ray shielding. |
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