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ZzaphodD Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 2426
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Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:19 am Post subject: Revamped Force Rules |
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Im trying to revamp the force rules with the main goal to cut down on dicerolling and massive action counts.
Anyone who has tried this and can summarize what they have done for inspiration?
I know someone recently mentioned switching the Force Powers into separate skills with separate skill dice.
I have also read switching to only one skill check per activation of a Force Power (even though Force Skill dice were kept as per the RAW).
Please, if you have any ideas you have been thinking of post them, even if only half baked. _________________ My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course.. |
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Tusk BloodFlail Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 15 Sep 2010 Posts: 51 Location: Gamorr
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Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:37 am Post subject: |
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I have never looked into it, but just off the top of my head if you double the "result" of the dice rolls instead of actually doubling the dice you roll that would help. If you only have 5D in something and you simply double the result that is going to create less actions because you still have to be careful. Using the force point and taking 4 actions total would make it so you're rolling 2D (from 5D) and doubling that instead of rolling 7D (from 10D). That is a big difference!
It will also make it so when you resist damage you are still getting a very good number as well.
Hope you found that helpful. _________________ You should not fear your enemies, they should fear you! |
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ZzaphodD Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 2426
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Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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Tusk BloodFlail wrote: | I have never looked into it, but just off the top of my head if you double the "result" of the dice rolls instead of actually doubling the dice you roll that would help. If you only have 5D in something and you simply double the result that is going to create less actions because you still have to be careful. Using the force point and taking 4 actions total would make it so you're rolling 2D (from 5D) and doubling that instead of rolling 7D (from 10D). That is a big difference!
It will also make it so when you resist damage you are still getting a very good number as well.
Hope you found that helpful. |
I totally didnt get what you were after at first, then it struck me that you were talking about force points, while I was talking about force skill use...
When Im talking about rolling lots of dice I mean rolling up to three times to activate one power, each being a separate action. Also, having the very large dicepools from Sense and LSC just to reduce them with mulitiple MAPs just to swing your lightsaber one time.. _________________ My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course.. |
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Tusk BloodFlail Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 15 Sep 2010 Posts: 51 Location: Gamorr
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Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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My bad... _________________ You should not fear your enemies, they should fear you! |
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Bren Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010 Posts: 3868 Location: Maryland, USA
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Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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We modified LS Combat to make it easier for padawans to activate and while at the same time lower the dice for granted higher skill Jedi.
Lightsaber Combat
Control Difficulty: Moderate (roll without subtracting for other skill uses)
Sense Difficulty: Easy (roll without subtracting for other skill uses)
Effect: To use a lightsaber most effectively, a Jedi learns this power. The Jedi uses this power both to wield this elegant but difficult to control weapon while also sensing his opponent's actions through his connection to the Force.
Activating this power is a “free” action. The power is called upon at the start of a battle and remains "up" until the Jedi is stunned or injured (and the Jedi’s remain conscious or control pain roll is failed); a Jedi who has been injured or stunned may attempt to bring the power back "up,” in a later round.
If the Jedi is successful in using this power, the Jedi uses the average of his Control and Sense skills as a dice pool. These dice can be modifications add to either the lightsaber skill roll when trying to hit a target or parry and/or the lightsaber damage (which can be raised or lowered). This division must be made before rolling to hit or damage..
If the Jedi fails the power roll any subsequent attempts to activate lightsaber combat in the same battle incur a penalty of -1D per failed attempt.
Finally, the Jedi may use lightsaber combat to parry blaster bolts. To do this, the character may either declare a full parry at the beginning of the round or use reaction parries. A full parry adds the lightsaber roll to the attacker’s difficulty to-hit. A reaction parry roll must be greater than or equal to the firer’s attack roll. Either type of parry counts as an additional action. One reaction parry is necessary for each attacker.
The Jedi may also attempt to control where deflected blaster bolts go, although this counts as a reaction action. The Jedi must declare which specific shot he is controlling. Then, if the parry roll is successful, the Jedi makes a control roll, with the difficulty being his new target's dodge or the range (figured from the Jedi to the target). The damage is that of the original blaster bolt.
Somewhat, but not totally what you asked for, but it's what we used after extensive play of lower level Jedi and then seeing what happened after they started getting more powerful.
Also, we sometimes ignore rolls once the Jedi is sufficiently skilled so the roll becomes highly likely. Saves on rolls and generally it is hard to imagine Obi Wan failing to activate LS combat in any of the first 4 films. |
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ZzaphodD Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 2426
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Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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Im thinking of making the Force Skills from the RAW inteo 'Force Abilities' and Force Powers into separate skills.
Discussed here..
http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2750
Another thought is to have less Force Power/Skills (under the new system).
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_powers
For example, Force Body (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Body) would replace Control Pain, Control Disease and similar Powers. Force Sense would replace, sense life, life detection, premonitions and similar. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Sense
The idea is to have less Powers/Skills and only one dieroll (except perhaps a few exeptions) per activation. _________________ My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course.. |
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 10439 Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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ZzaphodD wrote: | Im thinking of making the Force Skills from the RAW inteo 'Force Abilities' and Force Powers into separate skills.
Discussed here.. |
http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2750#85815
Here is the direct link to Ank's system. I have thought about the Force system more since January and I didn't remember all the details of that. He consolidates Control, Sense and Alter into one attribute and all powers are now skills of that one attribute.
ZzaphodD wrote: | The idea is to have less Powers/Skills and only one dieroll (except perhaps a few exeptions) per activation. |
http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3131#96903
That is my recent ramblings from another thread that are more appropriate here than in that thread. My proposed concept also adds a Force attribute and reduces the rolls to one to activate powers by making all powers either Control, Sense or Alter powers. But it makes two of the three skills into advanced skills and powers are still powers (just no multi-skill powers).
But I never seriously considered eliminating the three individual Force skills. That certainly does simplify things. I must unlearn what I have learned. I think I like that... _________________ *
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14215 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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Bren wrote: | We modified LS Combat to make it easier for padawans to activate and while at the same time lower the dice for granted higher skill Jedi.
Lightsaber Combat
Control Difficulty: Moderate (roll without subtracting for other skill uses)
Sense Difficulty: Easy (roll without subtracting for other skill uses)
Effect: To use a lightsaber most effectively, a Jedi learns this power. The Jedi uses this power both to wield this elegant but difficult to control weapon while also sensing his opponent's actions through his connection to the Force.
Activating this power is a “free” action. The power is called upon at the start of a battle and remains "up" until the Jedi is stunned or injured (and the Jedi’s remain conscious or control pain roll is failed); a Jedi who has been injured or stunned may attempt to bring the power back "up,” in a later round.
If the Jedi is successful in using this power, the Jedi uses the average of his Control and Sense skills as a dice pool. These dice can be modifications add to either the lightsaber skill roll when trying to hit a target or parry and/or the lightsaber damage (which can be raised or lowered). This division must be made before rolling to hit or damage..
If the Jedi fails the power roll any subsequent attempts to activate lightsaber combat in the same battle incur a penalty of -1D per failed attempt.
Finally, the Jedi may use lightsaber combat to parry blaster bolts. To do this, the character may either declare a full parry at the beginning of the round or use reaction parries. A full parry adds the lightsaber roll to the attacker’s difficulty to-hit. A reaction parry roll must be greater than or equal to the firer’s attack roll. Either type of parry counts as an additional action. One reaction parry is necessary for each attacker.
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So jay the jedi has 4 con, 5d sense, 5d LS combat, and is caught dead footed... he has 1 action to draw his LS, and none for MAP purposes to raise this.. and if he gets it up (Very likely since he no longer has any penalties for other actions), he gets to add the ave of 4d+5d (rounds to 4d+1 or +2 depending if up or down rounding), to either his to hit or damage..
And now each bolt parried that comes his way is a separate action??? _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Bren Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010 Posts: 3868 Location: Maryland, USA
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Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:02 am Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: |
So jay the jedi has 4 con, 5d sense, 5d LS combat, and is caught dead footed... he has 1 action to draw his LS, and none for MAP purposes to raise this.. and if he gets it up (Very likely since he no longer has any penalties for other actions), he gets to add the ave of 4d+5d (rounds to 4d+1 or +2 depending if up or down rounding), to either his to hit or damage..
And now each bolt parried that comes his way is a separate action??? |
That is correct.
I can't recall if we allowed him to choose full parry the first round or not. As it reads (since he is drawing his lightsaber) I think the Jedi could not full parry the first round.
I don't recall if we rounded up or down. I'd probably round down in this case.
I think we were also using haste rules, so the Jedi could draw and parry the bolts the same round (though with a -1 MAP for the haste). |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14215 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:33 am Post subject: |
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I can't agree to that revamp.. as we have seen from the films jedi can be caught dead footed.. and this makes that chance null and void. They already are gods in combat once they hit 5-6d in c/s, this makes it even worse if they can ignore their MAPS for having to pull out the LS, activate the power AND then parry all at once before someone else who HAD initiative can even shoot... _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Rerun941 Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004 Posts: 459 Location: San Antonio, TX
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Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | ... They already are gods in combat once they hit 5-6d in c/s, this makes it even worse if they can ignore their MAPS ... |
I can't agree more, garhkal. I hear lots of complaints that Jedi are overpowered, and then you want to go and make it easier for them? That's just asking for trouble. _________________ Han - "How're we doin'?"
Luke - "Same as always."
Han - "That bad, huh?" |
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Bren Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010 Posts: 3868 Location: Maryland, USA
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Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | I can't agree to that revamp.. as we have seen from the films jedi can be caught dead footed.. and this makes that chance null and void. They already are gods in combat once they hit 5-6d in c/s, this makes it even worse if they can ignore their MAPS for having to pull out the LS, activate the power AND then parry all at once before someone else who HAD initiative can even shoot... |
No one will make you agree to a revamp. So you are safe there.
But I think you may not have fully analyzed how the different parts work in this revamp. If you look above you will see that while LS combat can be put up as a free action. Drawing the LS and parring are actions (that's 2 actions). If Haste rules are used, then the Jedi can use 1 or 2 hastes to be able to parry the opponents attacks (so 3-4 actions).
If the attack is by surprise, then that might count as 2 additional hastes (so 5-6 actions).
If all dice in the pool go to LS combat then the Jedi in your example if surprised by one opponent parries at roughly base LS combat skills (4D control, 5D sense gives a 4D+1 bonus to LS combat -4D or -5D for MAP) of 5D. So the opponent only needs to roll better than 5D. Not that hard for an experienced foe. Also, in the Haste rules the opponent can haste his shot which the Jedi will need to match. Trust me, I've played the Jedi and I've been the GM. The Jedi can be surprised and can be damaged under this revamp. What this does is make it unlikely that a single low skill mook kills the Jedi because they got the drop on him. |
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ZzaphodD Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 2426
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Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Update
Force Skill will now be Force Abilities, otherwise stay the same.
Force Powers will now be separate skills. However the structure will not stay the same, there will be less skills but they will cover a larger area.
For example: Force Sense will cover, telepathy, Farseeing, Danger Sense, etc. The different applications will have different difficulties.
Force Body will cover Control Pain, Accelerate Healing, Detoxify poison, etc.
The exact structure is still being set, but these are the principles. Im basically working with the D6 Powers and the Wookie lists of powers. _________________ My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course.. |
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Bren Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010 Posts: 3868 Location: Maryland, USA
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Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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Rerun941 wrote: | garhkal wrote: | ... They already are gods in combat once they hit 5-6d in c/s, this makes it even worse if they can ignore their MAPS ... |
I can't agree more, garhkal. I hear lots of complaints that Jedi are overpowered, and then you want to go and make it easier for them? That's just asking for trouble. |
Long response: I've also heard complaints that high STR characters like Wookiees are too powerful, that high armor characters like stormtroopers and Mandalorians are too powerful, that Verpine and other high TEC characters are too powerful, etc. etc. etc.
I haven't heard those comments from the players in my campaign. If I did, I might be inclined to alter the rules. I have heard concerns that beginning Jedi couldn't use LS combat and that more advanced Jedi became too powerful too quickly. The modification is designed to address both issues.
It makes low level Jedi more able to bring up LS Combat and a little better at LS Combat. It has little effect on the LS combat power for mid level Jedi (The breakeven point is about 4D in sense and control) and it significantly weakens LS combat for high level Jedi.
Shorter response: Trouble is my middle name. |
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Bren Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010 Posts: 3868 Location: Maryland, USA
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Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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ZzaphodD wrote: | Update...Force Powers will now be separate skills. However the structure will not stay the same, there will be less skills but they will cover a larger area. |
Sounds a bit like a return to first edition. I'll be curious how it works out adn what you see as the advantages/disadvantages after you've played for a while. |
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