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Haste Rules

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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:36 pm Post subject: Haste Rules

Bren
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Location: Maryland, USA

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:52 pm Post subject:

Should have looked in the Pit first. http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1316&highlight=haste

ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:11 pm Post subject:

I dont like the bid and counterbidding part. If you want to do something fast you just decide 'how fast' at once. If someone is faster, tough luck. Also, couldnt a 'Speed action' add 1D to your Initiative? _________________ My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course..

atgxtg
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Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:28 pm Post subject:

ZzaphodD wrote:

I dont like the bid and counterbidding part. If you want to do something fast you just decide 'how fast' at once. If someone is faster, tough luck.

You couoldn7t do that in First edtion becuasetheorder of declaration wasn7t tied to an initiatve roll. SO the bidding allowed someone to match the speed of an NPC who declared after a PC.

ZzaphodD wrote:

Also, couldnt a 'Speed action' add 1D to your Initiative?

No becuase ithey didn7t use initiave in those days. They used to use the skill roll to derrtemine order of actions. For example, if you were n a shootout with a stormtrooper and you got a 18 and he got a 12, your shot woud go off first.

Hasted actions would prempt the normal order, with all hast actions coming off before unhasted ones. [/quote]

"nd edtion does have the fast draw rules, but they don't work well for lightsabers due to lightsaber combat being a mulitask.

ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:56 pm Post subject:

atgxtg wrote:

ZzaphodD wrote:

I dont like the bid and counterbidding part. If you want to do something fast you just decide 'how fast' at once. If someone is faster, tough luck.

You couoldn7t do that in First edtion becuasetheorder of declaration wasn7t tied to an initiatve roll. SO the bidding allowed someone to match the speed of an NPC who declared after a PC.

ZzaphodD wrote:

Also, couldnt a 'Speed action' add 1D to your Initiative?

"nd edtion does have the fast draw rules, but they don't work well for lightsabers due to lightsaber combat being a mulitask.[/quote]

Well, we are in the 'House Rules' forum, so I guess we are not oath bound to the written rules.. Laughing

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Bren
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:38 pm Post subject:

ZzaphodD wrote:

I dont like the bid and counterbidding part. If you want to do something fast you just decide 'how fast' at once. If someone is faster, tough luck.

Also, couldnt a 'Speed action' add 1D to your Initiative?

You could avoid the bidding buy making the players guess how many levels of Haste they need or want to use. Unfortunately this gives an advantage to the person who declares last, since they can learn what the opponent is doing and then choose a higher level of Haste so they act first. It makes going last a big advantage for high skill characters. The bidding is designed to avoid this problem, while giving an advantage to the high skill/or FP using character.

What's a Speed Action?

ZzaphodD
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Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:55 am Post subject:

Bren wrote:

ZzaphodD wrote:

You just have to decide without knowing what the opponent will do. This also means that you might rush things (and fail) unessecessarily if your opponent does not rush things.

In combat, when timing is important, we start with rolling initiative for each person. The result is then written down and the number divided by the number of actions that person wants to make that round. This gives an initiative count. For example a character that rolls Initiative 16 and wants to do two actions will make them at initiative count 16 and 8. This might seem a bit slow going, but really aint as soon as everyone knows how the system works. If different characters and NPCs actions wont interact with eachother we play out the entire round.

I think Ill use 'speed actions', where each action increases the Initiative by +1D (or a flat +2). All speed actions also count when calculating the Initiative count that round. For example, a character that takes two actions and two speed actions roll Initiative 20. Hell take his first action at 20 and the second at 15 because hell be dividing his initiative by all four actions to get his initiative count. The 'speed actions' themselves (at 10 and 5) are not real actions and play no other part in the game.

Speed actions are (obviously) decided upon before initiative is rolled.
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garhkal
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Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:55 am Post subject:

Bren wrote:

ZzaphodD wrote:

Perhaps a compromise, the one with the higher perception get to roll a check against (X) diff, and if successful gets to know how many D the other(s) are sacrificing for their hasting...

And i can see a hast action letting someone go first, BUT NOT allowing them to do 2 or more actions at once.. such as activating a 2 skill force power (lightsaber combat) THEN making an attack..
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atgxtg
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Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:47 pm Post subject:

garhkal wrote:

And i can see a hast action letting someone go first, BUT NOT allowing them to do 2 or more actions at once.. such as activating a 2 skill force power (lightsaber combat) THEN making an attack..

But then you can't have characters act the way the do in the films, TV and books.

The big obstacle is than with 2E, Jedi need to have Lightsaber Denese up to be able to parry blaster bolts. IN first edtion this wasn7t a problme becase Jedi got to use thier Sense for defense with a lightsaber. But in 2E Jedi are sitting ducks until they get Lightsaber Combat up.

For example, look at Luke fight at the Pit of Sarlacc. He manages to jump in the air, grab his lightsaber, activate it, and raise lightsaber combat, and start bashing guards with his lightsaber, all before even one of Jabba's goons takes a shot.

That can't happen in 2E. Luke would have been gunned down long before he got any defenses up. Even if you say that he had lightsaber combat up BEFORE jumping off the plank he still had to do his jump/backflip and get the lightsaber. THats at least two actions beforfe he can attack.

Raven Redstar
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Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:26 pm Post subject:

Luke spent a force point.

ZzaphodD
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Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:29 pm Post subject:

garhkal wrote:

Perhaps a compromise, the one with the higher perception get to roll a check against (X) diff, and if successful gets to know how many D the other(s) are sacrificing for their hasting...

Whats wrong with everyone just secretly deciding how many 'speed actions' or 'haste levels' they will do? This also better represent the rather hasted nature (pun intended) of these actions..
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garhkal
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Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:53 pm Post subject:

Raven Redstar wrote:

Luke spent a force point. Smile

Na.. he just had surprise!
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Bren
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:54 am Post subject:

Atgxtg:

Quote:

For example, look at Luke fight at the Pit of Sarlacc. He manages to jump in the air, grab his lightsaber, activate it, and raise lightsaber combat, and start bashing guards with his lightsaber, all before even one of Jabba's goons takes a shot.

Agreed. Allowing haste let's the PCs do that. Unfortunately, haste may prevent the villain from doing his/her action since the PCs may outbid him to get a shot off before the villain engages the base's self destruct, jumps in the escape pod, spins out of control off camera away from the soon to be exploded Death Star in his TIE advanced, etc. That has been a problem that I have seen with haste that makes it hard for the villian to live to fight another day (which is a common trope in Star Wars and similar types of fiction).

Perhaps the solution is to not allow the use of haste sometimes (when it would be undramatic). Of course that will only appeal to the drama school, not to the rules are rules school. Darn if only the rules were perfect. Wink

This idea was inspired by (I think) the D6 Indiana Jones rules. (Which reminds me of another question on Force Points that I will post separately.)

Raven Redstar:

Quote:

Luke spent a force point.

I think he did use a force point...at least I think I remember hearing the dramatic music at that point of the film. Laughing

But unless he can act first he's not going to be able to jump, catch his lightsaber, ignite it, put up lightsaber combat, and attack/defend before the bad guys can draw their guns and shoot.

ZzaphodD:

Quote:

Whats wrong with everyone just secretly deciding how many 'speed actions' or 'haste levels' they will do? This also better represent the rather hasted nature (pun intended) of these actions.

Nothing is wrong with that.

But, the GM typically knows the players attributes, skills, CP totals, and FP totals. The players generally do not know any of those things for the NPCs. So the GM, inherently is at an advantage in any secret bidding process since he knows how much both sides need to bid to win and how much the other side can afford to bid. The players know neither.

If both sides are comfortable with the information asymmetry and enjoy it. Great!

I have found that players sometimes enjoy the bidding process and like all auctions, if you conduct it quickly some players (or even the GM) may overbid and end up not being able to succeed at their actions. Which is, I think, the effect you wanted ZzaphodD. Laughing

ZzaphodD
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:15 pm Post subject:

Hmm, I dont really get the problem. Doesnt the GM have an advantage over the player all the time? I think having the GM 'cheat' (or is it plot) with haste actions is the least of the players problems if he is in such a mood... _________________ My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course..

Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA

Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:07 pm Post subject:

ZzaphodD wrote:

Doesnt the GM have an advantage over the player all the time? Laughing

I think having the GM 'cheat' (or is it plot) with haste actions is the least of the players problems if he is in such a mood...

Well technically there are a number of ways to mitigate the power and information differences. Hard keyed encounters, open die rolls, shared information. In fact I remember when we first played D&D in 1974 the DM would say things like "you open the door, inside are three swordsmen," which if I recall meant three 3rd level fighters. At the point where we figured the NPCs must have a big number 3 painted on their breastplate the DMs changed to "you see three men in chainmail armor." But initially, players had about as much info as the DM. Laughing

But in general I totally agree with you that the GM has the advantage. That's why I am seldom concerned with Players being too powerful to be hurt or killed in SWD6 (or pretty much anything I've ever GMed).

Unfortunately as a GM, I can't easily forget what I do know so most of the time, the auction makes for a more fair method of choosing the level of haste for the NPCs. And on rare occassions it also let's me adjust the NPC response to help or hinder the players to make the scene more exciting, i.e. so that the evil villain can trigger the self destruct by choosing just one more level of haste than the player can afford or at least upping the bidding to the point where there is a chance that the player fails his roll to shoot the villain. Granted some of that can be done by setting a high haste for the villain using my GM knowledge, but I find the bidding is easier to adjust and, as I mentioned, my players seem to like the process. But by all means use what makes your game interesting and fun.

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