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Bren
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 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:31 am Post subject: Learning Force Skills After Character Creation |
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According to the rules, characters that are force sensitive can learn Force Skills after character creation. This seems to be what we see in ANH with Luke. In our campaign, we perceived a game balance problem with this, since characters that have Force Skills during creation, must sacrifice 1D attribute for each Force Skill. Here is the game balance problem.
After character creation, IIR, it only costs 20 CPs to learn a new Force Skill. Thus a Force Sensitive Brash Pilot who finds a teacher could learn Control, Sense, and Alter to 1D for a total of 60 CPs (3x20CPs).
A Young Jedi character starts out with all three skills at 1D, but must sacrifice 3D in attributes. She can increase her lost attributes after character creation. She could increase KNO, STR, and TEC from 2D to 3D thereby gaining back the lost attributes. If she is lucky this would cost 180 CPs (20x3 for each attribute). To get similar characters, the Brash Pilot spent 60 extra character points and the Young Jedi spent 180 extra character points.
Since it costs quite a few character points to raise an attribute 1D we felt it should be progressively more expensive to learn Force Skills late in life (i.e. post character creation). I think this is in keeping with Yoda's comment that Luke is too old to learn in ESB and the fact that in the prequel trilogy Jedi are taught Force Skills at a young age.
It costs 20 CPs to learn a Force Skill after character creation. We kept that for the first Force Skill learned. Then raised the cost for the second Force Skill learned to 40 CPs and to 60Cps for the third skill learned. Under this rules tweak it now costs the Brash Pilot 120 CPs (20+40+60) rather than 60 CPs to add three new Force Skills, thus bringing the cost closer to the 180 CPs the Young Jedi would need to spend to buy back her lost attributes.
So, two questions for the other GMs out there.
1) Do you see a game balance issue for characters learning Force Skills after character creation?
2a) If you do, how do you manage that balance?
2b) If you don't see a game balance issue, why do you not? |
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Barrataria
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Learning Force Skills After Character Creation |
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| Bren wrote: | | Thus a Force Sensitive Brash Pilot who finds a teacher |
This is how you control that problem, no? Does the brash pilot get time off from his piloting to haunt cantinas around the galaxy to ask that ever-popular question, "hey, where do all the Jedis around here hang out"  Give him/her wild goose chases until you think it's fair for the force-users that gave up attribute dice at creation.
Different problem in other eras I suppose, but I assume that's why the RAW say one can only learn force skills (attributes!) from a teacher. Also, be careful with the templates- the Young Jedi in my 2E rulebook only has 15 attribute dice including the force "skills" 
I'll be interested in others' views as I don't like raising attributes at all (except for a kid or other story-based special circumstance), and I hadn't considered the problems that house rule would create for Jedi.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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When you pay 20 CPs to become force sensitive you dont get any force skill die. You just become force sensitive and have to buy them separately.
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | When you pay 20 CPs to become force sensitive you dont get any force skill die. You just become force sensitive and have to buy them separately. |
True. But I specified the Brash Pilot was already Force Sensitive. But even adding 20 CPs to the cost doesn't solve the problem. It is still far cheaper to buy force skill after creation than to buy attributes after creation.
In fact my recollection was incorrect. It is even cheaper to learn Force Skills after creation than I remembered. With a teacher it takes only 10 CPs and 1 week to learn a new Force skill. A teacher just needs 3D in the Force skill to be taught. This means that one player can fairly easily become the teacher for another player.
So force sensitive Brash pilot with 18D in attributes only needs to persuade another Jedi PC to train her then spend 30cps and 3 weeks to learn Control 1D, Sense 1D, and Alter 1D. Contrast this with the Young Jedi (with corrected attributes of DEX 3D, KNO 2D, MEC 2D, PER 4D, STR 2D, and TEC 2D) who will need to spend 60 cps and 60 weeks to increase one 2D attribute up to 3D (and this assumes the Young Jedi rolls lower than the GM to successfully get the increase). To equal the Brash pilot's 18D in attributes will take at least 180 CPs and over 3.5 years of training time.
That seems a bit out of balance to me. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:37 am Post subject: Re: Learning Force Skills After Character Creation |
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| Bren wrote: | | 1) Do you see a game balance issue for characters learning Force Skills after character creation? |
Yes.
| Bren wrote: | | 2a) If you do, how do you manage that balance? |
I haven't worked out a fully armed and operation alternate Force system yet, but I do have some ideas I guess I can put forth here for discussion.
It's always bothered me that the Force skills just floated there without an attribute to base them off of. So I want to take a page from D6 Space and make a Force attribute. To avoid confusion with the Force Points mechanic (and inspired by the full names MEC and TEC) I call this Metaphysical Aptitude, or "Metaphysical" for short. To be Force-sensitive means you have at least 1D in META. Most characters are not Force-sensative, so they are considered to not have this attribute or have META 0D and no Force skills.
But with the normal attributes, characters have the skills underneath each attribute default at the value of the attribute. Do I want all Force-sensitive characters to automatically have all three Force skills? No, but what existing mechanic for skills does not start with a base value of the attribute? Advanced skills. So I thought that one of the Force skills could be the default skill for that attribute, and the other two could be advanced skills that have the first skill as a prerequisite. Having the attribute and thus the base skill would not automatically give you the other two advanced skills.
Which skill? Well, the Force-sensitive indicates that. Sense. So if you are Force-sensitive, that means that you have the Metaphysical attribute at least at 1D, and the Sense skill at least at the base value of the attribute.
That actually gives starting Force-sensitive PCs an advantage of only having to use 1D of your 18D attribute dice on Force ability. Force sensitive PCs, no matter how many Force skils they have, could have up to 17D to put in their other attributes. Maybe they could spend more than 1D on Metaphysical, which would lower their attribute dice allocation for the rest of their attributes. Maybe their should be a starting PC limit of META 3D to somewhat resemble the attribute dice allocation of existing templates that start with three Force skills.
As far as starting skill dice allocation to Force skills, it would work as they do now. Players can allocate up to 2D max to any Metaphysical skill. So a player could put 1D out of his 18D in the attribute, and then putting 2D into Sense would start the skill out at 3D (1D+2D). And keep in mind that advanced skills all start out at 1D regardless of base attribute's value.
As far as the the prerequisites for Control and Alter, I thought they would be low enough so that all the existing Force-character templates could be recreated in the new system with only starting out with META 1D and the normal 2D skil max. Meaning, if you wanted to make an Alien Student of the Force, with all three skills, you could. The (A) Control 1D prerequisite could be Sense 3D. And (A) Alter's could be Control 2D (which would include the Sense 3D). So the Alien Student could start with META 1D, Sense 3D, Control 2D and Alter 2D for a cost of 1D in attributes and 6D in starting skills. I would probably also add non-Force-related prerequisites to the two advanced Force skills, like Perception, etc. but that's just me.
As far as cost, well that's the topic of discussion. (A) Control and (A) Alter should cost more that Sense to raise because they are advanced skills. As is the system so far makes Force-sensitive characters mor powerful starting out, so to balance it should cost more to advance. Exactly how much I haven't worked out yet. Perhaps some of you may have some suggestions? Perhaps (A) Control and (A) Alter should cost more to get if the PC doesn't start out with them through character creation.
Another balancing factor is the availability of teachers to train the characters with a higher cost of not having a teacher. Well, that's an easy factor to mange game balance (even in RAW) because the GM completely controls the availabiliy of teachers.
Another factor is that I don't allow PCs to start out with lightsabers. Acquiring (or creating) one should be an epic quest in of itself. Posession of lightsabers should be earned. I might allow a PC to start with one that fizzles out during the first adventure (so they need to eventually earn a new one). Besides, using a lightsaber without the appropriate skill should be dangerous so they pose more of a risk than the benefit of having one until a PC is skilled enough to use it well.
The final balancing factor is the reason I first thought of revising Force abilities. I want to simplify the system (which is why a lot of things above use elsewhere-existing mechanics instead of their own special rules whre possible). I've never liked having to roll more than one skill to use one power. In my above system, you have to have Sense to have Control, and you have to have Sense and Control to have Alter. So I thought maybe the prerequisite powers concept could be built into it's power's skill roll...
But let's back up a moment. You still have to learn powers. I thought you start one power with each starting skill die. If you learn (A) Control or (A) Alter after character creation, you get one power with that first 1D. But when you raise any Force skill one pip, you can learn a new power with it. This is an incentive to not start out too powerful because you don't start out with that many powers for higher dice values compared to starting low and raising your skills from there...
Instead of having powers that require rolls from two or three Force skills, all powers are reclassiified into three categories: Sense, Control and Alter powers. The existing Sense-only powers would stay Sense powers. The powers that are Control-only or Control+Sense would now be Control powers. Existing Alter-only, Sense+Alter, Control+Alter or Sense+Control+Alter would now all be Alter Powers.
If you want to Accelerate Another's Healing, you would have to have (all three Force skills, the Accelerate Healing power and the Accelerate Another's Healing power. You would only roll Alter and that would count as 1 action. Alter Mind would be one Alter roll (with appropriate prequisites). Since this would remove a skill roll or two, perhaps to have certain Control and Alter powers, the prequisites could include skill levels of certain minimum values in addition to requiring approprite prerequisite powers.
To balance things out, this would require a massive revision of the difficulties. Taking out a skill roll or two (and MAP penalties) should make things more difficult for the one skill remaining. PCs starting out with more attribute dice should also be balanced by their abilties being more difficult.
And with only have three categories for powers, you see more Control powers than Sense, and much more Alter powers than both. But the tiers of Force skills (advanced prerequisites) make it harder to start out with higher ability in Contol and especially Alter skills. If you start out with more than 1D in Alter it wil really take a long time and a lot more expensive skill advancement to even get to a lot of powers.
My purpose really is to simplify things and maintain or improve game balance.
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Bobmalooga
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:55 am Post subject: |
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I just make my players who are force sensitive and who want to learn the force spend the character points to buy the skills and spend the time learning them. Then I hit them with double costs for learning stuff on their own, it sucks but I suffered through it as a player and now so can they.
When it comes to this sort of stuff, everyone has their own opinion on how it should happen or work but the reduction of attributes after purchasing force skills seems a tad on the extreme side to me. I say that only because to reduce them in that way, you have reduce the skills related to that attribute, much in the same way increasing an attribute increases the skills under it.
Just a thought...
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | After character creation, IIR, it only costs 20 CPs to learn a new Force Skill. Thus a Force Sensitive Brash Pilot who finds a teacher could learn Control, Sense, and Alter to 1D for a total of 60 CPs (3x20CPs).
A Young Jedi character starts out with all three skills at 1D, but must sacrifice 3D in attributes. She can increase her lost attributes after character creation. She could increase KNO, STR, and TEC from 2D to 3D thereby gaining back the lost attributes. If she is lucky this would cost 180 CPs (20x3 for each attribute). To get similar characters, the Brash Pilot spent 60 extra character points and the Young Jedi spent 180 extra character points. |
The balance part is by the time that former non (or just) force sensitive has earned the CP, AND gotten the RP justification to buy the force skills, said starting force user is more than likely around 4-5d in all 3 powers and so is therefore more potent than he is.
| Quote: | 1) Do you see a game balance issue for characters learning Force Skills after character creation?
2a) If you do, how do you manage that balance?
2b) If you don't see a game balance issue, why do you not? |
While i do see your point, i don't feel it is that muh of an issue as is, cause for someone else to be as good as a wookie in hand to hand, they more than likely need around 120 cp to get their str up to close to a wookies.. PLUS i make it hard as hell to A) find a teacher
B) convince him to train you and C) for you to keep the 20cp needed at one time to get that 1d initial skill dice.. As i am NOT forgiving on the dice rolls (see all the threads on my gming), i have had most players burn through an ave of 3-5 cp a session just staying alive. YES some have gone the entire session and spent none, and others have spent 3-5 per combat.
| Quote: | | This is how you control that problem, no? Does the brash pilot get time off from his piloting to haunt cantinas around the galaxy to ask that ever-popular question, |
Yup. Use in game reasons to keep them away.. Not many mils will give the time off (especially the lengthy many weeks) to learn force skills...
| Quote: | | True. But I specified the Brash Pilot was already Force Sensitive. But even adding 20 CPs to the cost doesn't solve the problem. It is still far cheaper to buy force skill after creation than to buy attributes after creation. |
You are assuming the gm even lets it happen. NOTHING Says the gm has to have a teacher in the game to train the pc... AND If that brash pilot has pinged a DSP or two by the time he finds a teacher, NO teacher in his right mind will train him..
| Quote: | | In fact my recollection was incorrect. It is even cheaper to learn Force Skills after creation than I remembered. With a teacher it takes only 10 CPs and 1 week to learn a new Force skill. A teacher just needs 3D in the Force skill to be taught. This means that one player can fairly easily become the teacher for another player. |
If he is ignoring the rules of the jedi code... yes.
Heck i had one pc in game who actually got kicked out of the jedi order cause he trained 2 fellow pcs without the orders knowledge, let alone permission... So bang went HIS training, their future training (since they had maxed out what they could get from him) AND a good chunk of their financial backing..
| Quote: | | Another factor is that I don't allow PCs to start out with lightsabers. Acquiring (or creating) one should be an epic quest in of itself. Posession of lightsabers should be earned. I might allow a PC to start with one that fizzles out during the first adventure (so they need to eventually earn a new one). Besides, using a lightsaber without the appropriate skill should be dangerous so they pose more of a risk than the benefit of having one until a PC is skilled enough to use it well. |
I have done something similar.. OR just have the enemy target it..
| Quote: | | Another balancing factor is the availability of teachers to train the characters with a higher cost of not having a teacher. Well, that's an easy factor to mange game balance (even in RAW) because the GM completely controls the availabiliy of teachers. |
With the glut of holocrons that seem to pop up in campaigns around here, that to me seems to be not an issue...
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Quote: | | When you pay 20 CPs to become force sensitive you dont get any force skill die. You just become force sensitive and have to buy them separately. |
True. But I specified the Brash Pilot was already Force Sensitive. But even adding 20 CPs to the cost doesn't solve the problem. It is still far cheaper to buy force skill after creation than to buy attributes after creation.
In fact my recollection was incorrect. It is even cheaper to learn Force Skills after creation than I remembered. With a teacher it takes only 10 CPs and 1 week to learn a new Force skill. A teacher just needs 3D in the Force skill to be taught. This means that one player can fairly easily become the teacher for another player.
So force sensitive Brash pilot with 18D in attributes only needs to persuade another Jedi PC to train her then spend 30cps and 3 weeks to learn Control 1D, Sense 1D, and Alter 1D. Contrast this with the Young Jedi (with corrected attributes of DEX 3D, KNO 2D, MEC 2D, PER 4D, STR 2D, and TEC 2D) who will need to spend 60 cps and 60 weeks to increase one 2D attribute up to 3D (and this assumes the Young Jedi rolls lower than the GM to successfully get the increase). To equal the Brash pilot's 18D in attributes will take at least 180 CPs and over 3.5 years of training time.
That seems a bit out of balance to me. |
IMO opinion two factors balance this advantage.
1) Time. Teaching still takes a lot of time, if the GM feels things are progressing too fast, make the PCs short of it. In my games the PCs barely have time to 'heal up' using bacta tanks.
2) Noobie. The above mentioned brash pilot will start out as a total force newbie, while still attracting the attention of other (dark) force users looking for other force users to corrupt. A PC that starts as a Jedi (or other force user) will have a few D:s in control. In my games this is even harsher, given my Will of the Dark Side rules. A newbie Jedi who reciewes a DSP will have a hard time resisting the temptations of the dark side (which is built into the game mechanics). Said 'Jedi' will probably not have many (if any) dice in the Jedi Lore skill, which means he will be a bit lost when it comes to how to stay on the light side.
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Barrataria
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:15 am Post subject: Re: Learning Force Skills After Character Creation |
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| Whill wrote: |
It's always bothered me that the Force skills just floated there without an attribute to base them off of. So I want to take a page from D6 Space and make a Force attribute. To avoid confusion with the Force Points mechanic (and inspired by the full names MEC and TEC) I call this Metaphysical Aptitude, or "Metaphysical" for short. To be Force-sensitive means you have at least 1D in META. Most characters are not Force-sensitive, so they are considered to not have this attribute or have META 0D and no Force skills.
But with the normal attributes, characters have the skills underneath each attribute default at the value of the attribute. Do I want all Force-sensitive characters to automatically have all three Force skills? No, but what existing mechanic for skills does not start with a base value of the attribute? Advanced skills. So I thought that one of the Force skills could be the default skill for that attribute, and the other two could be advanced skills that have the first skill as a prerequisite. Having the attribute and thus the base skill would not automatically give you the other two advanced skills. |
Interesting stuff... I was re-writing the R&E expansion/errata to serve as a houserule document and found it pretty confusing to talk about "force skills" which are really force attributes and "force powers" which are really skills of the attribute. I hadn't thought of the attribute/skill/advanced mechanics you talk about but they would certainly help with all the prerequisites as well as clean up the multi-ability force skills.
I would be inclined to make the three force aspects separate force attributes though. I think you could still use the (A) mechanic to clean up the prerequisite skills as well as tone down point acquisition.
And @ garkhal...
| Quote: | Not many mils will give the time off (especially the lengthy many weeks) to learn force skills...
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You think Luke had any 'splainin' to do when he got to the fleet missing a hand three weeks later?
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:56 am Post subject: |
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Whill, interesting ideas. One problem with your approach is it assumes that characters will have Sense > Control > Alter. While that simplifies the system, it prohibits having a character who is a prodigy at Control or Alter, which I find limiting. But I like the way your are thinking.
Most everybody else, I suggest you re-read the rules on adding Force skills.
Cost = 10 cps and time = 1 week. This is not very restrictive in any campaign I have run, played in, or heard about.
Teacher needs 3D in the force skill to be learned. Note this could easily be a starting player character. Again, not very restrictive.
If your house rules are different than the rules as written, good on you. But as written, this is a significant game imbalance. This was my point. |
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Bobmalooga
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:50 am Post subject: |
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Now I did change the 'teaching at 3D' thing, so that players had to have at least 6D in any of the skills in order to teach them, otherwise they 'just didn't feel right about it...' the thought in my mind at least was that 3D seemed quick and easy with no real wisdom to it. 6D in the skills on the other hand showed that you spent some time learning these things and were dedicated to learning the Force.
Just a personal house-rule though...Now of course I also used at least 6D across the board as a benchmark for Jedi Knight (With at least 6D in Lightsaber, Jedi Lore and Lightsaber repair as well...) and passing their trial which just as easily could have lead to their death. At least 12D across the board as a 'master' again with a serious trial and you had to have taken a student and taught him to at least Knight level and seen him through his/her/its trial as well!
Just my two credits...
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:29 am Post subject: Re: Learning Force Skills After Character Creation |
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| Barrataria wrote: |
And @ garkhal...
You think Luke had any 'splainin' to do when he got to the fleet missing a hand three weeks later? |
Diff there is he is a main screen character AND HERO of the rebellion.... so i can see them letting that happen for him.
| Quote: | | Teacher needs 3D in the force skill to be learned. Note this could easily be a starting player character. Again, not very restrictive. |
If either are following the jedi order, then yes it is.. Since tutoring someone else is limited to masters/knights... Someone starting out with 3d is barely a padawan...
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:54 am Post subject: |
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I allow teaching at any level, as long as the teacher has at least 1D more in the force skill than the pupil. I feel that an artificial set limit is a bit silly. One day you dont have a clue how to teach someone, the next day you are fully trained.. Im such a nice and easygoing GM so I allow ANYONE to teach... If you are under 3D in skill the resulting CP cost for the pupil is 1,5 times the normal cost however (to tie this to the RAW in a way).
HOWEVER...teaching pupils while at a low skill level is DANGEROUS. It involves a few rolls of the skill in question together with the Jedi Lore skill. Even if this normally dont add up to a DSP, bad dice rolls will get noted and the pupil in question might get a future penalty to resist the Will of the Dark Side wich frequently tempts my Jedis. The exact mechanics are not with me atm. REALLY bad rolls while teaching (both force skill and jedi lore gives 1:s on the wild die which end up at 0 or lower) might actually generate an immediate DSP.
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Ankhanu
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | I think this is in keeping with Yoda's comment that Luke is too old to learn in ESB and the fact that in the prequel trilogy Jedi are taught Force Skills at a young age. |
I think that has more to do with the malleability of the mind and the temptations of the Dark Side than any kind of difficulty in learning.
| Bren wrote: | It costs 20 CPs to learn a Force Skill after character creation. We kept that for the first Force Skill learned. Then raised the cost for the second Force Skill learned to 40 CPs and to 60Cps for the third skill learned. Under this rules tweak it now costs the Brash Pilot 120 CPs (20+40+60) rather than 60 CPs to add three new Force Skills, thus bringing the cost closer to the 180 CPs the Young Jedi would need to spend to buy back her lost attributes.
So, two questions for the other GMs out there.
1) Do you see a game balance issue for characters learning Force Skills after character creation?
2a) If you do, how do you manage that balance?
2b) If you don't see a game balance issue, why do you not? |
Generally, I don't. Not many characters choose to gain Force Skills after character creation, by my experience, nor do many Jedi end up raising their Attributes to get to a starting normal level... it's kind of a moot point in most circumstances. A Jedi-from-the-start character would be advancing their character rather inefficiently to focus on increasing Attributes.
I don't really see a game balance issue... yes, there is a difference, but, by the time that it would come into play in a normal game, Skills are more important than Attributes for determining success, or, for Jedi, the Force comes into play more. I don't really find that later on in the game that the difference between a character who started as a Jedi and one who became a Jedi really matters; the power levels aren't THAT different (that and inequalities is part of what defines this game system).
Given that few would try to recover the Attributes lost at character creation, and rather focus on skills and the Force, the fact that a non-Jedi needs to accrue and spend 20CP at a time to get even rudimentary skill in the Force kinda balances things out... keeping in mind that your Force Skills are essentially useless until you get them to 3-4D and beyond.
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Tusk BloodFlail
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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Ben Wrote
| Quote: | It costs 20 CPs to learn a Force Skill after character creation. We kept that for the first Force Skill learned. Then raised the cost for the second Force Skill learned to 40 CPs and to 60Cps for the third skill learned. Under this rules tweak it now costs the Brash Pilot 120 CPs (20+40+60) rather than 60 CPs to add three new Force Skills, thus bringing the cost closer to the 180 CPs the Young Jedi would need to spend to buy back her lost attributes.
So, two questions for the other GMs out there.
1) Do you see a game balance issue for characters learning Force Skills after character creation?
2a) If you do, how do you manage that balance?
2b) If you don't see a game balance issue, why do you not? |
The question of game balance has always been a very interesting question to me. In the Star Wars Universe its a simple truth that some races are simply better than others. As are some templates. Is it "balanced" that Jedi are better than stormtroopers? I can make an armored Esoomian that can take lightsaber hit after lightsaber hit from low leveled Jedi... that does not go along with anything any of use has ever seen in any of the movies, books, comics, etc. Thus game balance is an illusion at best.
1) I do not see a balance issue with it. In fact, we allow beginning characters to allocate beginning SKILL dice into force skills and allow them to keep all of their attribute dice. Since force powers operate like skills anyways.
2) I have found that Jedi need all the help they can get. Lets say in one round I want to move up to my opponent and attack him with lightsaber combat activated. That is 4 actions (move, lightsaber, lightsaber combat [2 actions]) for a total of -3D to all my actions. This is of course assuming that I am not going to dodge/deflect any attacks coming my way. So I would need at least 4D in both Control and Sense for this to even be worth while.
It is very, very easy for a Jedi to perform up to 6 to 9 actions in a single round without even trying. Just trying to deflect a single blaster bolt back at an opponent is 4 actions (lightsaber, lightsaber combat, and the attack to make the blaster bolt hit) now go ahead and move and attack someone and you are up to 6 actions for a grand total of -5D. So if players wish to learn force powers later on, I say let them. In fact you might want to kick a few extra character points their way so they live long enough to use those powers
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