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Jame Rowe
Ensign
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
Posts: 48
Location: North of Boston MA USA
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 Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Why not just use Ion cannons, since they ignore shields. |
You could use missiles too, as they too ignore shields (particle shields are supposed to be included in the hull rating).
The point is if there is such a rule anywhere. I have a vague recollection of reading of such a rule. |
I dislike the particle shields rule, and have houseruled that the hull is the hull without particle shields and that the ship has particle shields equal to ... hmmm ... *rethinks his position a bit* well, originally equal to the shield rating, but now maybe half the hull rating.
Edit: oh look, I made Ensign. Good for me.  |
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tetsuoh
Captain
Joined: 21 Jul 2010
Posts: 505
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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We have always allowed called shots versus ship systems just modified by size as per standard.
the hardest to hit are communications and shields at +8D followed by bridge and weapons at +4D followed by Engines and specific ship sections at +1D difficulties.
this is modified by scaled of ship vs ship as well - as in a normal skirmish if there is a pack of starfighters versus a command vessel they are almost always ordered to focus their assault on a specific section of the vessel anyway. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14133
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:32 am Post subject: |
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How much 'extra' damage do those called shots do, especially in relation to the scale diff.... since they still have to over-ride said diff on the damage.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | How much 'extra' damage do those called shots do, especially in relation to the scale diff.... since they still have to over-ride said diff on the damage. |
That isone of the problems with the scaling mods. Little ships get big dice bonuses to hit big ships. The problem is, those extra dice can be cnverted into more attacks, or (if you are using a called shot to increased damage option), more damage. It negates part of all of the bonuses for being a big ship.
After all, a 8D called shot penalty doesn't mean much if you got a 6D scaling mod and a 2D fire control.
Maybe it would be better if we applied the scaling mod as apeanlty to the big ship's dodge roll instead? That way starfighter gunners aren7t getting an extra 6D to play with? |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14133
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Maybe it would be better if we applied the scaling mod as apeanlty to the big ship's dodge roll instead? That way starfighter gunners aren7t getting an extra 6D to play with? |
Hm. 6d bonus to hit, or 6d penalty to dodge. Seems the same to me.
Perhaps the scaling bonuses should have kept the 'D bonus to the larger scale' for damage and soak purposes, but halved it for the lower units chance of hitting/dodging...
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belshazzar
Cadet
Joined: 12 Mar 2010
Posts: 14
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Missiles still roll damage against hull+shields.. |
Nope. Standard shields are "ray shields". Ships also have "particle" shields, but they are already factored into ships' hull codes.
BTW, one way to reduce the shields is get a damage result that equal or exceeds the Hull roll slighly (0-3 range). Each shuch hit lowers the shields by 1D. |
I actually remember that particle and ray shields have the same die code. The only difference is that Ray shields are usually activated only in combat situations, while particle are always ON. So a ship with HULL 3D and SHIELDS 2D, would always roll 5D (I am not taking angling or scaling into account). The only exception to this is Ion attacks, which always ignore shielding. Please check the rule |
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| belshazzar wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Missiles still roll damage against hull+shields.. |
Nope. Standard shields are "ray shields". Ships also have "particle" shields, but they are already factored into ships' hull codes.
BTW, one way to reduce the shields is get a damage result that equal or exceeds the Hull roll slighly (0-3 range). Each shuch hit lowers the shields by 1D. |
I actually remember that particle and ray shields have the same die code. The only difference is that Ray shields are usually activated only in combat situations, while particle are always ON. So a ship with HULL 3D and SHIELDS 2D, would always roll 5D (I am not taking angling or scaling into account). The only exception to this is Ion attacks, which always ignore shielding. Please check the rule |
Please re-check. 
Particle shields are included in the Hull code and are used at all times except when the ship wants to launch fighters or missiles. If you lower them the Hull code drops by -2D (Dont ask me what happens if you have a ship with Hull 2D that drops the particle shields though..).
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Particle shields are included in the Hull code and are used at all times except when the ship wants to launch fighters or missiles. If you lower them the Hull code drops by -2D (Dont ask me what happens if you have a ship with Hull 2D that drops the particle shields though..). |
That is also the way I recall the rules. I never liked that though and have used the same fix as that proposed by James Rowe. |
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Quote: | | Particle shields are included in the Hull code and are used at all times except when the ship wants to launch fighters or missiles. If you lower them the Hull code drops by -2D (Dont ask me what happens if you have a ship with Hull 2D that drops the particle shields though..). |
That is also the way I recall the rules. I never liked that though and have used the same fix as that proposed by James Rowe. |
I have to say I also play it like that, I was just pointing out the RAW.
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Tusk BloodFlail
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 15 Sep 2010
Posts: 51
Location: Gamorr
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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I have not found ANY info that says missiles bypass shields (quite the contrary). Nor have I found any info that says particle shields are INCLUDED in the hull code, and since they are under "Shields" that would lead me to believe they are included in the "Shield" code. It does say that when your particle shield is down you have a -2D to your hull (that is not the same thing) It also "implies" that particle shields cover your entire ship and no roll is necessary.
Since the rules do not divide shields under ships I can only assume that the shield code applies to both types of shields.
Now all of this is under "Shields" so it has always been my contention that if being attacked by a missile (or caught in a meteor shower) you always roll your full hull + shields die code, since this is your "particle shield". Now for blaster fire you have to use your ray shield which requires a shield roll to put it in place and to benefit from that use of your vehicles "shields"
So, yes there are two different shield, but they are both SHIELDS!
Now why does a ship have -2D to all damage when its particle shield is down? I have no clue. But I do know that given that rule I can walk onto a space dock and destroy many of the ships I find there with any type of Heavy Blaster Pistol... 
It does make some sense that if your ship takes damage and starts coming apart that a particle shield would help hold it together, but thats my best guess 
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Tusk BloodFlail wrote: | I have not found ANY info that says missiles bypass shields (quite the contrary). Nor have I found any info that says particle shields are INCLUDED in the hull code, and since they are under "Shields" that would lead me to believe they are included in the "Shield" code. It does say that when your particle shield is down you have a -2D to your hull (that is not the same thing) It also "implies" that particle shields cover your entire ship and no roll is necessary.
Since the rules do not divide shields under ships I can only assume that the shield code applies to both types of shields.
Now all of this is under "Shields" so it has always been my contention that if being attacked by a missile (or caught in a meteor shower) you always roll your full hull + shields die code, since this is your "particle shield". Now for blaster fire you have to use your ray shield which requires a shield roll to put it in place and to benefit from that use of your vehicles "shields"
So, yes there are two different shield, but they are both SHIELDS!
Now why does a ship have -2D to all damage when its particle shield is down? I have no clue. But I do know that given that rule I can walk onto a space dock and destroy many of the ships I find there with any type of Heavy Blaster Pistol...
It does make some sense that if your ship takes damage and starts coming apart that a particle shield would help hold it together, but thats my best guess |
First the rules detail Particle Shiels (page 126)
| Quote: | Shields come in two main varieties: particle
and energy/ray shields.
Particle shields deflect all sorts of physical objects,
including asteroids, missiles and proton torpedoes.
They are used at all times, except when a ship launches
fighters, missiles or torpedoes (the shields must be
dropped to allow physical objects to pass through
them). When a ship lowers its particle shields, reduce
its hull code by -2D. (A ship which loses its main power
generator also loses its particle shields.) |
Then it switches to Energy shields
| Quote: | Energy shields are normally activated only in combat,
and must cover specific fire arcs to be effective in
combat.
Using shields is a "reaction skill." Each starship has
a certain number of dice in shields. When a pilot uses
shields, the shield dice must be split up among the four
fire arcs: front, back, left and right. |
Ie, Particle Shields are included in the Hull code and need not be activated as they are normally always activated, unlike energy shields which follows the normal shield rules.
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Tusk BloodFlail
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 15 Sep 2010
Posts: 51
Location: Gamorr
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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I know, and I saw nothing in there that changes my statement.
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Tusk BloodFlail wrote: | | I know, and I saw nothing in there that changes my statement. |
Even less that supports your interpretation. 
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14133
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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I am with Z.. that write up seems to entail that Partical shiels are part of your hull code.
Now as a q.. would it be just your gunnry, or tactics (or some other skill) to try and time your missile shot at someone to when they have to drop theirs (momentarily) for launching their own missiles/fighters/torps?
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Tusk BloodFlail
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 15 Sep 2010
Posts: 51
Location: Gamorr
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, okay. So in your estimation bullets, which are seemingly unable to be stopped by shields, were traded in for lasers which are easily defended by shields. Yeah that makes perfect sense.
I wonder why ships are equipped with blasters instead of a high caliber bullet then?
It is apparent we must agree to disagree.
One last thing. When you read under star ship weapons Ion Cannons specifically say they bypass shields, and tractor beams specifically say that they are only opposed by the HULL. Missiles say nothing about bypassing shields. I do not understand what makes you thing shields are useless against missiles, or any projectile for that matter. Another thing no where does it say that Energy shields block blasters or lasers, and since blasters and laser, under ship weapons, do not specifically say you can use shields to block them do they also bypass shields?
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