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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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 Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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Someone usually eventually dies in my campaigns, but I can't say it happens too often. A couple campaigns have even had a couple PCs die. I try to make it dramatic and meaningful to the story when it does happen. When someone dies that does eliminate any false impressions my players may have had that their characters were somehow "protected" for the sake of the story. In my game, they are not. The way I look at, a lot of characters die in the films so it shouldn't be impossible for a PC to die in our RPG stories.
That is one reason that the first times watching the prequel films were inherently less dramatic for me than the classic trilogy - I already knew that no matter what happened, Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda would all live. When my wife first watched the films in chronological order, she was on the edge of her seat when watching the final lightsabers duels in Revenge of the Sith. She had no clue how Anakin vs. Obi-Wan and Yoda vs. Palpatine would turn out.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14168
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| mdlake wrote: |
(Garkhal seems still to subscribe to this approach of treating the RPG as a game to be won or lost, rather than narrative art: death as the measure of challenge, death as proof of free will. ZzaphodD seems to, as well, though I would suggest he isn't "going soft" so much as drifting from game-as-game to game-as-story.) |
More that to me it is more of a game and less of a story. I have been in some bad games where the gm treated it as his story and we were just parts in it. Therefore we all had 'plot' imunity... I have never liked PI, and find it as 'cheezy' as playing a computer game with all cheats enabled.
| mdlake wrote: |
I refused--"It shouldn't matter!"--and he clearly fudged the result. Very dissatisfying, when Janos's abrupt and bloody death could have heightened everyone's emotional involvement, and given that I was clearly prepared to see it happen. |
Which is precisely why i don't fudge or give plot immunity.
A) when a player realized they have PI they get stupider and bolder with their antics, from tackling a squad of stormies, to taking on a whole platoon of them. From taking on 3-5 ties, to taking on 1-2 full squadrons...
B) i have seen players walk out on a game cause of the 'dissatisfaction they felt when they found out the gm was willfully fudging..
C) a lt of times i see fudging happen only in favor of the 'gm's favorite.
| Quote: | Basically this - I have never owned a set of dice that "liked" me, as such my best set (which I was using this campaign) roll rather average. Our GM used his good dice and every npc had wild dice. To top it off we started the game being wanted by the empire and every npc had above average stats.
Examples of how sessions went for my character:
My char was an ex stormtrooper who hates junkies - he knew the crew needed money and has a grudge agaisn't the local drug cartel (we were in my chars "hometown") so I went and found a normal human flunky deathstick dealer. I walked up to make a purchase and quick drew my blaster under his chin, demanding his take. A fight broke out and I shot him in the face. He rolled 4D (his strength) and soaked the 4d of blaster pistol. The fight lasted for over 12 rounds to the point where corsec was heard in the background, so the dealer dropped his bag and ran, I hit the floor and passed out due to my wounds. He wasn't wearing any armor and I shot him in the face well over 12 times. I had been wearing a blast vest and he had punched me to mortally wounded.
We find a world with an unscannable surface to use as a hideout from imperial search parties. We find a base that's been ruined but has a working shield and gun turrets that could either be sold or modified for our ship. while taking them off the shield drops and my character gets tail swiped by an invisible huge saber toothed snake. The snake's damage crumbles the chestplate of my spiffy new ubese armor and crushes my chest. One attack - Mortally wounded. Surprise attack, I had no chance.
My character has been trying to find a set of armor this entire campaign and knows of a few places to look but knows someone who has far more than what hes after - an old military dog like my own character, who's a drunkard. I pay him a visit at the local cantina - pay to get him utterly gilled - and offer to help walk him home. He remembers I was looking for this armor before and re offers to let me have a look at his collection. right after letting me in, the dude throws up and passes out. Excellent, I respected him and didn't want to have to kill him, I carry the old geezer to his bed, then head down to rob him blind. I roll a 42 on security and bypass the lock on the transparasteel case with the first set of armor. Only for security covers to drop on all cases and the room to start to flood with gas. I, having had enough - telekinesis the security plates off and grab both types of armor I had been looking for and go to make a break for it. The old man is awake with a blaster in hand, throws up, looks at me and opens fire. I proceed to get into a fight with him for two hours IRL as I tk him into walls and the ceiling over and over trying to knock him out. Finally wounded the old man pulls a thermal detonator and chucks it at me (in an enclosed space) "if I can't have them neither can you" - I TK it back at him "it reaches halfway back and blows" he ends up incapped - I end up dead - turns out the old man is cyberized 5d strength and runs around wearing mandolorian armor under his closes like a set of footie pajamas.
I end up saved by our mysterious jedi benefactors in the rebellion. They repair the armor I stole and warn me "we'll let you keep your trinkets, we even fixed them, but I must advise you not to continue this path your on." they radio the other players to come get me. Halfway off the rock our security droid sets off the ship alarms, the crate I brought on board is emitting a beacon signal and imperials are closing in. We are forced to land. we walk off to see the old man with his armor on the outside this time and wearing the helmet (guess he didn't like me cracking his head into ceiling who knows how many times even though he soaked it every time). Demanding I return his property. I take two steps forward, my friends right behind me "Come now old man, we had this already worked out, don't you remember last night?" 62 on Con, remember he was so drunk he had passed out before the horrible events that followed. Fail, He opens fire with a slugthrower. The Jedi apprentice right beside me blocks with a lightsaber but misses the next shot. 30+ damage = Dead, Gm looks at me "Aren't you wearing the armor???" "After I just got told there's security bugs on it????" I sit and watch what happens for a while. The other two manage to kill the 4 stormtroopers and the old man but the docking bay hits our ship three times with EMPs in the meantime. The jedi manages to telekinesis the ship into orbit (she blew like 20 character points trying to save us that she had been saving to up her dex stat). Ship was dead in the water with all but life support and lighting blown and Imperials were bearing down on us. The jedi uses Transfer Force on me. GM asks if the spirit of my character is willing to come back. "Don't even worry about it"
*Closed my notebook, grabbed my bag and my pop, and left.*
And those are just the major times during the campaign, I died my dumb stuff all the time. Like the first sessions ambush of 6 gammorreans with a mounted gun while we were on foot, because we went to the bad side of town, which had never been stated while we were walking.
I didn't want to place the blame on the GM until I saw all your responses...
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From my experience, the first with the death stick dealer is definitly bad gm.. NO minor npc should have 4d in an attribute... Heck many NAMED nps don't. And even then only specifically combat geared ones had high strength.
As to the snake, there should have been SOME way to sense their presence.. or to know their wear abouts.. Other wise it is like me springing an unknown sniper on you, that you have NO chance of avoiding let alone knowing about. (yes i have used snipers but not without foreshadowing or hints)..
On the old man with armor. I flat out call GM BULL on that. A) no way someone is wearing mando armor under their clothing and NOT getting it noticed. Let alone you CARRYING him home and not picking up that he was wearing something. Then him waking up and having both a blaster and thermal detonator.. wtf where did he have them hidden? Up his keister?
Then on the last one... Ok, so a 62 fails a con against this guy. what did he have 13+ dice in it? Seems like this guy was a major muchkin in dmship.
| Quote: | | So I Telekinesis the lock and spend character points to make sure it works (50 something total I think - I dropped 5 Character points is all I know.) |
Hm.. That the gm even let you spend 5cp on a non life saving action (or one you have a specialty in) lets me know he does not even kno the rules. or cares not for them.
| Quote: | | *writes down in his notebook, "If I ever run for garhkal, make sure to kill him in the first 10 minutes to display the challenge of my game."* |
  BRING IT ON!
| Quote: | | A roll now and again, not every roll. And if I was caught and the player was upset. Let him die, I don't care. I believe you misinterpreted what I was saying from "I don't go after my players, trying kill them." to "I don't kill my players." Just because it hasn't happened, doesn't mean it won't. So many of my players character points are being spent on soak, it'd be hard to kill them without having the NPCs blow character points on damage, which I don't think is fair. |
Fare enough. Sorry if it came across as accusatory. BUT more often than not, when they 'fudge' once in a while, it winds up becoming 'fudge any time they might suffer. AND one gm i have had the misfortune of playing under flat out feels that the gm should be the pc's biggest fan adn therefore should NEVER make them suffer.
| Quote: | | I think that the game masters you've had gar are not particularly good at slicing their rolls, not to mention the fact, that players shouldn't be looking behind the screen anyway, seating is usually arranged to make that a little more difficult, and if I did have players that were incapable of resisting the urge to just have a little peek at my dice, I'd rotate the table to keep them away from the screen. |
ITs more the
I roll a 3, 1, 2, 1 and 1 on the wild, say for a dodge against a veteran bounty hunter who has (from what we have seen of his prior exploits) 8-9d in blaster, MISS, when only taking 2 action!. I am sorry, but even if he took 4 actions e is still rolling 5d. And would have to get a flat out 1 on all dice to EVEN me (ties go to the attacker remember)...
Or the pc who is shooting at a storm trooper (long range), with cover (50%) and while NOT surprised, and a pc's 11 to hit succeeds in tagging him in the head.
Basically many of the times i have noticed it was WELL overboard. And i have over the years gotten good at noticing. Like hearing the number of dice and getting within 2 d of what was rolled (like 9 dice rolled i can hear it as 8-10) and the gm coming up with a number that matches only what HALF that number should have... or less.
I strive to be 'impartial' in whether the party wins or loses their challenges. whether that is a blaster shoot out, a game of sabacc or a simple wiring of a door. I also won't (unless playing an NPC out to do it) willfully go to kill the party. BUT if the situation and dice say they die. They die.
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Grimace
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Joined: 11 Oct 2004
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Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| tetsuoh wrote: | ...snip...
And since the person in question is already 27 I wondering as to his growing out of it. According to one of the other two players his games has always been that way, just he never had picked on a character so badly before.
...snip... |
Sometimes it's not so much "age" as it is "years as a GM" that leads to a GM becoming good. Some people get the ability sooner, some take longer. I know some GMs that have been at it for over 15 years and still don't have everything it takes to be an excellent GM.
With this guy it could take until he's 40 before he gets it...assuming he sticks with it that long. So it's different for everyone.
Now a couple other things:
1. Just because a GM fudges some die rolls doesn't mean they become heavily inclined towards PC immunity. I've fudged die rolls, yet I usually end up having a dead PC about every 9th or 10th game session (equivalent to 1 every couple months). Mostly the death is related to doing something relatively stupid, but sometimes it's just because the dice weren't friendly to the player. For example, I had a PC that was sliding down a hillside towards a thousand foot cliff. I gave the player not one, not two, but three chances to stop the PC from sliding, to grab on to the something, and a final "one last grab for a handhold" but when all three rolls failed, off went the PC over the cliff and it was time to write up a new character. So fudging things isn't necessarily bad. What's bad is when the desire to keep the PCs alive overrides even common sense.
2. The situations listed are certainly over the top in terms of what was rolled and what happened. Beyond it being a rather power-gamer type of game, it was certainly a case of bad GMing that lead to the PC death. As evidenced with the end result, if a GM is bad often enough, they eventually find no players at their table. It might make the GM learn that they need to change, it might not. But taking your game elsewhere is the best way to combat bad GMing.
3. I just wanted to point out to Raven that I generally know the style of play that garhkal does and that sometimes all the rolls are done in the open, so there's generally not a GM screen to hide the rolls behind. I generally don't like to run a game without a GM screen. One reason is for privacy when it comes to game notes, but also for the die rolls. But others don't necessarily use GM screen. I've played under two different GMs recently who never use GM screens. So "peeking" at the die rolls is sometimes very easy to do. |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:24 am Post subject: |
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Yup. I find it makes the players more willing to trust you when they see what you roll..
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Ankhanu
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Rerun941
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:49 am Post subject: |
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I'm an old softie. I guess I've had too many D&D characters get scwhacked just for failing a save. I want to get attached to the PCs just as much as the players do.
I generally don't kill characters unless:
1. They do something stupid
2. Don't heed warnings
3. The player wants their character to go out with a bang.
I use a screen, but show rolls on occasion (both good and bad) to earn the trust of my players.
Wookiee PC: "I got a 25 for damage!"
Me: *lifts up the screen showing 4 for the mook's soak roll* "Yeah, you got him."
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tetsuoh
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Yup. I find it makes the players more willing to trust you when they see what you roll.. |
| Ankhanu wrote: | | I also never use a screen. |
But I also doubt either of you would you give a human drug dealer max strength without telling your player that the NPC looks looks buff as all hell. |
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:41 am Post subject: |
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I have had several baddies who were either superior in str (4d) or above that due to cybernetics inside, that did not outwardly show their level of skill.
I know people irl who are stronger than i am but don' look bigger.. so high str does not to me, necessitate that they will be bigger.
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ggmoridin
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:27 am Post subject: |
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most of my gm's wont go out of their way to kill their players... but as some of you have said, if they do some thing monumentally stupid you'll let them die....
my gm's prescribe to the idea.... "i'm not out to kill you... the dice are" |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10402
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | More that to me it is more of a game and less of a story. I have been in some bad games where the gm treated it as his story and we were just parts in it. |
To me, the game is just the method of producing the end result, which is an entertaining story. But it is not just my story. It is a collaborative effort from the group as a whole. I emphasize this concept by assigning TV or movie-like "credits" for an adventure to everyone in the group.
| Quote: | Executive Producer: (GM or player who provides the gaming location)
Catered By: (GM or players that provide food for the group)
Producer: Whill
Associate Producers: (list all the other players)
Director: Whill
Associate Directors: (list all the players)
Screenplay by Whill, (list all the players)
Story By: Whill, with (list all the players)
Based on Characters Created By: (list all the players and then myself last)
Universe Based on Star Wars Created By: George Lucas
Starring (Player 1) as (PC 1)
Starring (Player 2) as (PC 2)
Starring (Player 3) as (PC 3)
(and so on. I'll add " and (GC 1)" if a player is also playing a GC, like his PC's droid)
Also Starring Whill as (everyone else) |
As far as GM screens, I've never had an issue of GM trust. I always roll behind the screen and fudge appropriately. My players are usually very satisfied with the story so have complete trust in my guidance of it.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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i guess cause i have had issues with gms showing 'favoritism/ with their fudging in the past, or rolling dic and claiming a miss was a hit/hit was a miss, on someone who 'displeased' them as given me the 'issues of trust' with gms fudging the dice and using screens.
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tetsuoh
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | i guess cause i have had issues with gms showing 'favoritism/ with their fudging in the past, or rolling dic and claiming a miss was a hit/hit was a miss, on someone who 'displeased' them has given me the 'issues of trust' with gms fudging the dice and using screens. |
The issue with GMs who just aren't right for you, I guess. Though given enough times I can see it becoming a major qualm of any player, as it most definitely has and will continue to.
I tend to think most GMs should use screens for the sheer purpose of being able to fudge rolls for the betterment of the game. Its when you get the ones like that though that the screen issue occurs.
But then my problem is exact opposite as yours, GMs who don't use screens and refuse to fudge the rolls for the sake of enjoyment of the game and often screw over their players because of it.
Either way its two halves to the same coin "GM doesn't fit my playstyle." |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:50 am Post subject: |
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To me, if a gm has to fudge, something went wrong somewhere. The rule books says combat is deadly. So what if that mook stormtrooper hits the pc for 30+ damage. why should the pc get a pass from not suffering/losing just cause it was a mook. Leia got hit in the arm by a mook on endor. Luke got brought down by a mook on hoth (no name for the gunnery guy on that atat)...
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Leia got hit in the arm by a mook on endor. Luke got brought down by a mook on hoth (no name for the gunnery guy on that atat)... |
Both of your examples were minor inconveniences, Leia suffered a wound, maybe Incapacitated at best.
Luke: sure, he was shot down, but he was still given opportunity to crash land, and escape before getting stepped on by an AT-AT.
Both of these, I see, as examples in my favor. 30+ damage would have destroyed Luke's snowspeeder, and the galaxy would be doomed. Toning back the damage a little, and making something dramatic happening is generally how I deal with death rolls before I'm ready for a player to die. Instead of having the speeder blow up instantaneously, which could be an outcome, everything ionizes and he crashes, suitable new fun bit happens next.
Instead of a 16 damage shot from a storm trooper killing the player. Tone it back to mortally wounded, or incapacitated and maim him, permanently, only to be fixed by a cybernetic replacement. Which could be an adventure in itself, if the party is nowhere near the proper medical facilities. It could turn into a race against time and/or infection. That's assuming that the trooper doesn't arrest him after. Nothing like going to a prison world with a barely working arm for an interesting follow up.
As far as I'm concerned, outright killing players is no fun. Torturing them or taking away everything that's important to them is more fun for them, and me. |
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Hellcat
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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Well Leia didn't fall unconcious so she wasn't incapacitated.
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