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Raven Redstar
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Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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Location: Salem, OR
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 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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One of my earliest characters was a young jedi, who had a grenade thrown at him by a scout trooper. The grenade landed at my feet and I used telekinesis to chase the scout with his own grenade.
The GM decided that it wasn't evil enough to warrant a darkside point. |
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tetsuoh
Captain
Joined: 21 Jul 2010
Posts: 505
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| Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Rerun941 wrote: | | tetsuoh wrote: | ...
Me "I use telekinesis to throw three thermal detonators at the bounty hunter's head"
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3 Dark Side Points |
Meh I didn't get crap and wouldnt have even if they had been armed - our games use a different dsp system than the official rulings. |
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Hellcat
Grand Moff
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 11921
Location: New England
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| Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Gry Sarth wrote: | Here's a funny one from a game I was GMing:
The group is aboard their freighter, approaching a planet.
GM: The planet fills your viewscreen.
Player: What time is it on the planet?
GM: ?... ALL OF THEM!! |
Been a while since I've viewed this thread and I've really gotta say Gry that your "ALL OF THEM!!" has got to be classic.
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Dustflier
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 140
Location: Upstate New York
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Rerun941 wrote: |
During one game I did have a Jedi PC pull the pin on a grenade and use telekinesis to "throw" it at a target. I gave him the warning that it would be a DSP, but he couldn't get it through his thick skull as to why it would be a DSP. |
Why would this be a DSP? I suppose it depends on the situation, but if all else fails and a Jedi has to resort to using a weapon other than his lightsaber... it is still just a weapon. It isn't like he was necessarily enjoying the pain and suffering of the target of the thermal detonator, and he wasn't using a dark side power.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, just because a PC uses a weapon other than a lightsaber doesn't mean that the PC is deserving of a DSP. As an example:
Teepo Paladins (an offshoot of the Jedi Order that encourages the use of blasters in combat, along with a lightsaber), though not accepted by the Jedi Counsel, aren't described as evil or of the dark side in Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight. They're generally light or gray, from what I can tell.
Even Obi-Wan used a blaster to kill Grievous.
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ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Dustflier wrote: | | Rerun941 wrote: |
During one game I did have a Jedi PC pull the pin on a grenade and use telekinesis to "throw" it at a target. I gave him the warning that it would be a DSP, but he couldn't get it through his thick skull as to why it would be a DSP. |
Why would this be a DSP? I suppose it depends on the situation, but if all else fails and a Jedi has to resort to using a weapon other than his lightsaber... it is still just a weapon. It isn't like he was necessarily enjoying the pain and suffering of the target of the thermal detonator, and he wasn't using a dark side power.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, just because a PC uses a weapon other than a lightsaber doesn't mean that the PC is deserving of a DSP. As an example:
Teepo Paladins (an offshoot of the Jedi Order that encourages the use of blasters in combat, along with a lightsaber), though not accepted by the Jedi Counsel, aren't described as evil or of the dark side in Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight. They're generally light or gray, from what I can tell.
Even Obi-Wan used a blaster to kill Grievous. |
Well, if throwing a rock at someone using TK give you a DSP, I assume a grenade will result in one too.. 
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jmanski
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Joined: 06 Mar 2005
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Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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That's one of those WEG rules that I just don't agree with. Slash someone in half with a lightsaber using lightsaber combat- fine. Throw a rock at someone with TK- DSP!
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Esoomian
High Admiral
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Dustflier wrote: | | Even Obi-Wan used a blaster to kill Grievous. |
Yes but he didn't also use The Force to kill Grievous, he used The Force to get the blaster but then killed Greievous with nothing more mystical than shooting.
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Dustflier
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Joined: 21 Feb 2011
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Location: Upstate New York
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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Obi-Wan had only one chance to line up a shot and slip the blaster bolt through Grevious' chest plates and to his heart. He was fighting hand-to-hand with an enemy twice his size and made of metal and ceramics (?). In such a testing situation, I suspect that any Jedi would use the Force to ensure that the shot didn't miss.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| jmanski wrote: | | That's one of those WEG rules that I just don't agree with. Slash someone in half with a lightsaber using lightsaber combat- fine. Throw a rock at someone with TK- DSP! |
I agree, but where should you draw the line?
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Dustflier
Lieutenant Commander
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Location: Upstate New York
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:37 am Post subject: |
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I think it is pretty clear, from what I've read of the EU. There are two separate systems of belief about where to draw such a line in the Force: the beliefs of the Potentium, and those of the mainstream Jedi.
For those who believed that there was only one Force, the Light Side and the Dark Side categories are seen as just that-- only labels. For these believers, the Force is inherently good, and the Dark Side powers are a corruption of the Force itself. In this way, the believers of Potentium said that the potential for light and dark sides resided in the user, not the Force itself.
On the other hand, the Jedi Order taught that the Force was split into two parts, the Light and Dark sides. They also saw the Dark Side as a corruption of the Force, but believed that the origin of this corruption was not in the end user, but the Dark Side of the Force itself.
How these theories have been applied to EU publications, games, etc. varies by the author/designer (naturally). Even so, it could easily be said that the overall truth that can be seen in the Star Wars universe is that the belief in the Potentium is generally correct. For example, Kyle Katarn is able to use Force Lightning and Force Choke while remaining a Light Side character. These powers do not corrupt him.
Likewise, a Dark Jedi is able to use most traditional Light Side powers without ill effect.
"Remember: abilities are not inherently good or evil, it's how you use them."
―Kyle Katarn
With this in mind, I propose the following Golden Rule of DSP:
If the action is made or Force power is used in good faith with wholesome intentions and does not draw upon negative emotions (such as anger, hate, or jealousy), it is not punishable through the application of a Dark Side Point.
This would encourage creative use of the Force and Force powers in a game, but also keep the spirit of the separation between the Light and Dark Sides of the Force intact. Tossing a rock or grenade with the Force are acceptable to save innocent lives, but they aren't if the Force user is merely doing them to inflict pain and suffering.
As a side note,The Power of the Jedi Sourcebook states that the Potentium is a corrupt, misguided philosophy (and is a canonical source). On the other hand, the EU has become populated with "Light Side" Force powers based off of the Potentium or similar concepts, such as Electric Judgement, Emerald Lightning, and some uses of Force Grip.
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Fallon Kell
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Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:51 am Post subject: |
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I like that idea, Dustflier. Puts words to my thoughts.
I always thought the Jedi got a lot wrong. If I thought Lucas thought the Jedi got a lot wrong, I'd applaud him for adding such depth to his story. Unfortunately, I can't give him the benefit of the doubt.
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Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:33 am Post subject: |
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I always liked the idea that the Jedi code is rigid because The Force doesn't some with a manual so it might not be exactly right and it probably errs too far on the side of caution when it comes to what is acceptable and what isn't but if you follow it rigidly then you will stick to the Light Side.
In game terms I guess that would translate to the Jedi code being guidelines rather than rules and DSPs are given at GM's discression with an eye towards keeping in line with the code but being able to bend some rules.
I do think however that some powers and acts are DSP worthy plain and simple.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | I always liked the idea that the Jedi code is rigid because The Force doesn't some with a manual so it might not be exactly right and it probably errs too far on the side of caution when it comes to what is acceptable and what isn't but if you follow it rigidly then you will stick to the Light Side.
In game terms I guess that would translate to the Jedi code being guidelines rather than rules and DSPs are given at GM's discression with an eye towards keeping in line with the code but being able to bend some rules.
I do think however that some powers and acts are DSP worthy plain and simple. |
In biblical history, especially around the time of Jesus and the early Roman Empire, the Jewish faith became increasingly dogmatic and focused on the letter of the law as opposed to the spirit. The Pharisees were an ultra-orthodox sect who studied the law in detail to make sure that they did not violate any aspect of it. To help them achieve this goal, they instituted a practice called "hedge laws". These were laws which went above and beyond the law described in the Torah, and were intended specifically to provide additional protection to the practitioner, by keeping them away from actions that might have even the potential of violating the law.
I look at the Jedi Code as something similar. In essence, it is a "hedge law" designed to keep Jedi from straying too close to the Dark Side, even though such actions are not necessarily dark. One of the things covered by the Apostle Paul in the New Testament was the concept of "gray areas", in that the law specifically prohibits certain acts while permitting others, but there is much that is not mentioned, and is thus left up to the personal beliefs of the individual. The example quoted in the Bible is of how some considered meat offered as a sacrifice to false gods. Often, such meat would be sold on the side after the sacrifice. While some Christians considered that meat to be unclean, others had no issue with buying it and eating it (after all, if the god the meat was sacrificed to was false, then where was the harm). Paul does not come down on either side, other than to say that one should not allow their personal actions to bear a negative witness to other believers.
IMO, the Jedi as of the fall of the Republic had a lot of similarities to this. It isn't inconceivable that the Jedi at the time of the fall of the Republic had become stagnant with "orthodoxy", refusing to expand their scope of knowledge for a variety of reasons, perhaps wariness of the Dark Side a first, and then gradually becoming something like "this is how we have always done things." The Sith, bound by no such limitations, hid and studied and expanded the scope of their power and knowledge until they were finally ready to reveal themselves, and when they did, the Jedi lost the initiative. They were forced to play a game that Sidious had been a long time planning, and they were never quite able to catch up.
After Order 66, Yoda was confronted with the failure of the order (see the final pages of the ROTS novel), and forced to realize that, to survive, the Jedi needed to learn a new perspective of the Force, more open and intuitive, guided by personal morals and the Force itself, not by the rote and dogma of the past. In the EU, Luke spends a lot of time searching for information on the old Jedi Order, with little success. In theory, Yoda could've taught Luke all of that information (after all, he had been part of the order for nearly a millennium). Instead, Yoda seemed to concentrate solely on Luke's connection to the Force, instructing him in seeking guidance from it. Perhaps this is because Yoda knew he only had so much time to work with, but based on Yoda's moment of enlightenment in the ROTS novel, I find it more likely that he intentionally left out the rules of the past and focused specifically on teaching Luke to depend on the guidance of the Force, not the rules and regulations that had bound the order in the past.
I'm not saying that Yoda abandoned the concept of light and dark in opposition in the Force, merely that, in the intervening twenty years, he learned to free himself of the strictures of the old order and follow the guidance of the light itself. This, in turn, was what he passed on to Luke.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:40 am Post subject: |
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Oh, and to stay on topic with the thread...
I was in a game once where the PCs were trying to defuse a bomb, and the Tech almost failed but spend a Force Point and we were all spared at the last moment.
In the resulting moment of relieved silence, my friend Dale (A 10th degree black belt in sarcasticonelinerjutsu) burst out with the following (in a perfect Marvin the Martian voice):
"Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom?"
For those of you for whom Looney Tunes was before your time, see the following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMuWOLVAzYY
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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cheshire
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:04 am Post subject: |
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Go to 3:34 for the referenced line.
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