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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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 Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| Critias wrote: | | When Artoo and Threepio are as important to the stories as they are, given such strong personalities, and cherished by other characters...can you really say that it wouldn't totally be breaking character if Luke were to suddenly turn on a piteously whining, warbling, and hooting R2-D2 and slash him into pieces with his lightsaber, then telekinetically fling chunks of droid everywhere? Or, say, if Luke were to do the same to Threepio just because ol' goldenrod's voice grated on his nerves? |
I would say that such brutality says more about the individual performing the act, than simply killing a droid. Personally, I do not believe it is morally wrong to kill an animal. I've gone out, taken a fish from a stream, killed it, and eaten it. I have not, however, become annoyed with a fish to the point where I have grabbed it, shoved my hands under its gills, snapped it's spine, torn it apart, and thrown it into the woods.
One is killing an animal as a means to the end of feeding one's self. The other is using death and mutilation as a satisfaction of the desire to kill and mutilate.
If Luke had decided that he no longer had a use for his droid, switch it off, had the components sold, and its chassis melted down I don't think that we would argue that he deserved as DSP. We would call him unsympathetic, not evil.
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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I guess we are really looking at the question, what is life?
If a piece of metal is sentient, self aware, can form rational thoughts, form opinions and have a unique personality, is it still a piece of dead metal or is it alive. I think its mentioned in the SW literature that these questions are discussed in the galaxy regarding to droids. Also, if 'of the production line' droids are not alive, at what point is life created?
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Personally, I'm more concerned with the spirit behind the Jedi rules than I am the letter of them. I've had a character use "Sith only" powers -- very specifically and desperately using them to commit good and save a life -- and I waived the auto-DSP of them. Similarly, if a character were out to loophole a "droids aren't alive, I can do whatever I want to them and it's not cruel!" argument...well...they'd get a warning, then probably DSP. |
Remember, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. So using the dark side to do good, MAY start out ok, but will (or should) eventually lead to them turning at some point.
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Gamer
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 20 May 2010
Posts: 125
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Droid Characters used as pinballs |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | If I get this right, if ever a group of players that includes a droid character meets a force using opponent (ie not light side) the droid character will be very susceptible to telekinesis with no 'real' Perception to resist with. Is that so? Even more likely, the players will be able to make short work of any 'badass' droids coming their way (even IG88). |
You got it, one example is in return of The Jedi C-3P0 is lifted telekinetically by Luke and 3P0 goes into a panic over it demanding he be put down and crying for help, if he could have resisted he certainly would have.
Is it fair? Don't care myself, I have played droids with it happening to me quite a few times for good and bad. |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Remember, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. So using the dark side to do good, MAY start out ok, but will (or should) eventually lead to them turning at some point. |
I don7t think it WILL/SHOULD lead to the character turning to the dark side, but it should certanly lead them to greater temtation and make thier turning more likely.
Basically they bend a rule once and probably get away with it, so they are tempted to bend another rule, even further at a later date, since it "worked out okay" the last time. Eventually the line blurs enough so that the Jei does something that mertis a DSP and starts down the dark path.
Hopefully the Jedi will see their error, especialyl after that first DSP, and return to the straight and narrow, but there is alays the lure to bend the rules "juast a little" and in a "safe way". |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:02 am Post subject: |
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Precicely what i was saying. If they bend the rule once for this, eventually they will STEP over the rule and earn that DSP>
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | I guess we are really looking at the question, what is life?
If a piece of metal is sentient, self aware, can form rational thoughts, form opinions and have a unique personality, is it still a piece of dead metal or is it alive. I think its mentioned in the SW literature that these questions are discussed in the galaxy regarding to droids. Also, if 'of the production line' droids are not alive, at what point is life created? |
You're asking this of a board full of GMs and casual players? Philosophers have been fighting over this for eons. Good luck getting a definitive answer, my friend.
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Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind. |
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | I guess we are really looking at the question, what is life?
If a piece of metal is sentient, self aware, can form rational thoughts, form opinions and have a unique personality, is it still a piece of dead metal or is it alive. I think its mentioned in the SW literature that these questions are discussed in the galaxy regarding to droids. Also, if 'of the production line' droids are not alive, at what point is life created? |
You're asking this of a board full of GMs and casual players? Philosophers have been fighting over this for eons. Good luck getting a definitive answer, my friend.
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Hehe, I didnt really expect to get an answer. Just pointing out that perhaps its not as clear cut as it seems (Its a machine, which means we can do whatever we like to it). As it has been debated IRL (not regarding droids though), so it has ISWL (but here very much regarding droids).
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Skeksin
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| Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 4:25 am Post subject: |
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Ok it's a bit after the last post on this topic but I thought I would chime in with my $.02.
I recall reading somewhere that it is not just what you are doing but why you are doing it. Something about using hate even for good purposes is itself a bad thing.
So you need to look at what the character is thinking/feeling as well as what they are doing.
GM may as always hand wave anything away that is getting in the way of the story. |
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: |
You're asking this of a board full of GMs and casual players? Philosophers have been fighting over this for eons. Good luck getting a definitive answer, my friend.
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I thought GMs were philosophers who fought over stuff for eons... 
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Bren
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | cheshire wrote: |
You're asking this of a board full of GMs and casual players? Philosophers have been fighting over this for eons. Good luck getting a definitive answer, my friend.
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I thought GMs were philosophers who fought over stuff for eons... |
Sometimes it feels like eons. But really as a GM it's only been for 37 years. |
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Random Numbers
Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 454
Location: Gladsheim
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | cheshire wrote: |
You're asking this of a board full of GMs and casual players? Philosophers have been fighting over this for eons. Good luck getting a definitive answer, my friend.
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I thought GMs were philosophers who fought over stuff for eons... |
Sometimes it feels like eons. But really as a GM it's only been for 37 years. |
For todays facebook generation 1 year equals 1 aeon. You have been a GM for a VERY long time my friend...
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Random Numbers wrote: | | For todays facebook generation 1 year equals 1 aeon. You have been a GM for a VERY long time my friend... |
So does that date me to the Late Cretaceous? Maybe that's why I've always wanted to see a T. Rex fight a Triceratops.  |
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Henrik.Balslev
Commander
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 278
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | I guess we are really looking at the question, what is life?
If a piece of metal is sentient, self aware, can form rational thoughts, form opinions and have a unique personality, is it still a piece of dead metal or is it alive. I think its mentioned in the SW literature that these questions are discussed in the galaxy regarding to droids. Also, if 'of the production line' droids are not alive, at what point is life created? |
Actually a book has been written about this - look up "Is Data Human? - the metaphysics of Star Trek", by Richard Hanley, ISBN 0-7522-2453-0.
Even if you are not into philosophy its a very interesting read
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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In that case, i guess i go back to the caveman era!
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