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ZzaphodD
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 Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:49 pm Post subject: Droid Characters used as pinballs |
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If I get this right, if ever a group of players that includes a droid character meets a force using opponent (ie not light side) the droid character will be very susceptible to telekinesis with no 'real' Perception to resist with. Is that so? Even more likely, the players will be able to make short work of any 'badass' droids coming their way (even IG88).
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:29 am Post subject: |
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Yup. Droids share that somewhat 'distinction' of being dead to the force to where all the mental side powers don't do squat to them, but also suffer in that they can't put up any meaningful defense against the physical one.s
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Hellcat
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:25 am Post subject: |
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There is a dark side power, electronic manipulation. Not sure about other offical sourcebooks but it appears in the Tales of the Jedi Companion that you could have a little fun with. It's not actual mental effect like affect mind or the darker control mind; it does give you something to use against droids.
| Quote: | Electronic Manipulation
Control Difficulty: Easy for non-sentient machines; Moderate for sentient machines; Difficult for sentient machines hostile to Sith. Modified by proximity.
Alter Difficulty: Easy for slight alteration; Moderate for significant changes in programming; Difficult for major reprogramming.
Required Powers: Absorb/dissipate energy, affect mind
Warning: Any character who uses this power gains a Dark Side Point.
Note: This power is a Sith discipline
Effect: This power allows a Sith to channel his anger into the electronic circuits of a computer, droid, or machine, and reprogram it by manipulating its physical and electrical components. The reprogramming can only restore original reprogramming which has been altered, not actually rewrite a computer’s programming.
Since this Sith power can only be evoked in a state of rage, the Jedi have long avoided using it. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:15 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Yup. Droids share that somewhat 'distinction' of being dead to the force to where all the mental side powers don't do squat to them, but also suffer in that they can't put up any meaningful defense against the physical one.s |
Yeah, I guess you lose some and win some. Lets stay away from all those ever present chasm, or install some kind of jet pack / repulsor engine. 
On such a note, is a 'droid' sentient enough to warrant a DSP if one kills it with TK? Especially a PC droid or major NPC droid (often not being wiped for years and having developed self awareness).
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:58 am Post subject: |
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I would say yes..
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cheshire
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Yup. Droids share that somewhat 'distinction' of being dead to the force to where all the mental side powers don't do squat to them, but also suffer in that they can't put up any meaningful defense against the physical one.s |
I'm looking for a specific ruling on this. Is there an actual mention of these ideas in the rulebook, or is this just extrapolation from what we assume metaphysically about the Force and the general nature of thinking machinery?
Regardless, it seems reasonable, but I'm just curious.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Droids share that somewhat 'distinction' of being dead to the force to where all the mental side powers don't do squat to them, but also suffer in that they can't put up any meaningful defense against the physical one.s |
I agree with this idea in general. Droids are not actually living beings. However I'm not sure that there is a specific ruling about the second part of that. Receptive telepathy specifically states that it cannot be used on droids, but the Telekenisis power in both the TOTJ Sourcebook and R&E both use general terms of "objects" and "characters." Sentient droids are often considered "characters," and if a GM rules them as such with respect to the Telekenisis power, then they may be able to resist. But I wouldn't let them....
| ZzaphodD wrote: | | On such a note, is a 'droid' sentient enough to warrant a DSP if one kills it with TK? Especially a PC droid or major NPC droid (often not being wiped for years and having developed self awareness). |
It looks like that is GM discretion too. But since you're asking for specific feedback...
I rephrase the question. I don't think the level of sentience is what should matter for droid. I think it is really a question of them being "alive" or not. You can't really "kill" a droid beause a droid is not organically alive. Despite Threepio's vocalized fear of "dying", droids can be only be destroyed, not killed. So I would rule the droid to be an object with respect to the morality of the Force. If a player of mine used telekenisis to destroy a droid, I would probably not give a DSP just for that inof itself, unless the intention behind doing it was evil.
But in my game, droids are never major characters despite their level of sentience. Droids are merely minor supporting characters or minor antagonists. So it is really an easier consideraton for me. There are no R2-D2 caliber droids in my game.
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cheshire
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
But in my game, droids are never major characters despite their level of sentience. Droids are merely minor supporting characters or minor antagonists. So it is really an easier consideraton for me. There are no R2-D2 caliber droids in my game. |
Is that to say you would never let a player have a droid PC?
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Critias
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| It seems to me like if using Electronic Manipulation to change a droid's programming is evil enough to earn a DSP, killing them should be DSP-worthy, too (or, at least, within the normal confines of what deaths count as DSP-worthy to begin with). |
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cheshire
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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I think we have to recognize the nature of the change in order to understand why it is DSP worthy. Simply changing a droid's programing is not evil, but for some reason, the way that specific power is used is evil. Similarly, Force lightning is not simply evil because it harms another, but because it focuses hate and anger.
To illustrate, one may say that it is not immoral to try to speak to you in order to change your mind. However, it would be immoral to try to change your mind by hitting it with a rock. 
If we accept a droid as completely sentient, and that changing the droid's programing is evil, then any change to the programming would be evil. Ergo memory wipes, additional software, or changing the droid's operational architecture would likewise be DSP worthy. I reject that last premise, thus I don't think that this power provides us with sufficient information to determine whether blowing up a droid would be DSP worthy.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | Whill wrote: |
But in my game, droids are never major characters despite their level of sentience. Droids are merely minor supporting characters or minor antagonists. So it is really an easier consideraton for me. There are no R2-D2 caliber droids in my game. |
Is that to say you would never let a player have a droid PC? |
That is indeed to say I never let a player have a strait droid PC. But I would allow a player to play a modified version of the Shard species in a droid body. That's as close as I'll come. Somewhat related to this discussion, I don't allow droids to have Force points. In my game, not even R2-D2 has FPs. CPs? Yeah, lots. FPs? No. That is part of the reason I don't allow droid PCs, because I think that all PCs should have FPs for game balance. Another reason to not have droid PCs is that it is too easy to blow up droids (at least in my games that tends to happen a lot). With a Shard, even if the droid body is destroyed, the Shard itself may survive to inhabit another droid body. I allow Shards to have FPs, but I do not allow them to be Force-sensative.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Yup. Droids share that somewhat 'distinction' of being dead to the force to where all the mental side powers don't do squat to them, but also suffer in that they can't put up any meaningful defense against the physical one.s |
I'm looking for a specific ruling on this. Is there an actual mention of these ideas in the rulebook, or is this just extrapolation from what we assume metaphysically about the Force and the general nature of thinking machinery?
Regardless, it seems reasonable, but I'm just curious. |
There are some force powers that specify when used on droids they go by a set diff, rather than a 'resisted' diff....
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Praxian
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| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| Critias wrote: | | It seems to me like if using Electronic Manipulation to change a droid's programming is evil enough to earn a DSP, killing them should be DSP-worthy, too (or, at least, within the normal confines of what deaths count as DSP-worthy to begin with). |
Ok, but would the DSP go away after the Jedi got over his tantrum and put the droid back together to the condition it was in when he TK'd it?
After all, if you use one of the force powers to save another characters life, you -always- get it back. So what's to stop players from saying "Well, I had my fit, and now I'm putting the droid back together like he was."
The next question out of their mouth is "By the way, can I get rid of that DSP when he's done?" |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:00 am Post subject: |
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Nope. Just cause you 'righted the wrong' does not mean you dimish the touch on your soul DOING that wrong caused..
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Critias
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| Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| Praxian wrote: | | Critias wrote: | | It seems to me like if using Electronic Manipulation to change a droid's programming is evil enough to earn a DSP, killing them should be DSP-worthy, too (or, at least, within the normal confines of what deaths count as DSP-worthy to begin with). |
Ok, but would the DSP go away after the Jedi got over his tantrum and put the droid back together to the condition it was in when he TK'd it?
After all, if you use one of the force powers to save another characters life, you -always- get it back. So what's to stop players from saying "Well, I had my fit, and now I'm putting the droid back together like he was."
The next question out of their mouth is "By the way, can I get rid of that DSP when he's done?" |
I don't know, do you still earn a DSP if you Force Lightning someone, then toss them a medpack? 
Personally, I'm more concerned with the spirit behind the Jedi rules than I am the letter of them. I've had a character use "Sith only" powers -- very specifically and desperately using them to commit good and save a life -- and I waived the auto-DSP of them. Similarly, if a character were out to loophole a "droids aren't alive, I can do whatever I want to them and it's not cruel!" argument...well...they'd get a warning, then probably DSP.
When Artoo and Threepio are as important to the stories as they are, given such strong personalities, and cherished by other characters...can you really say that it wouldn't totally be breaking character if Luke were to suddenly turn on a piteously whining, warbling, and hooting R2-D2 and slash him into pieces with his lightsaber, then telekinetically fling chunks of droid everywhere? Or, say, if Luke were to do the same to Threepio just because ol' goldenrod's voice grated on his nerves?
After that, would you, as a GM, just go "Well, it was just a droid," and continue on the adventure?
I think that if droids are living creatures enough, in canon material, to have personalities and be characters...realistically, Jedi should still need to have a good reason to tear 'em apart. Hacking up an assassin droid that's out to kill the Jedi or the rest of his team? That's one thing. But chasing a sad, harmless, little astromech droid down a hallway to slice it into pieces, for no good reason but that technically it shouldn't get you a DSP and you want the lightsaber practice?
*shrug* Your mileage may vary, but I know what'd happen in one of my games. |
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