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Random Numbers
Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
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 Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Someone who argues the point of 'shades of gray' to hard is imo trying to skirt around getting a DSP. And i love to follow the old adage, if you have to ask if it is wrong, then it was. |
I guess it's depending on how you see the force and darkside. If you follow the letter of the law, as it's written on the TK description I guess you could get away with turning of a lightsaber. If I was a GM I would never accept that. In that case I wouldnt reward ANY damage done by Tk with a DSP. Unless it was really cruel and therefore merit a DPS just cause the inhumamnity of it. Like torturing someone while holidng them down.
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vong
Jedi
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:24 am Post subject: |
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heh i would personally not argue, i dont see it as wrong. I am getting an advantage in a Life or Death combat.
I am 1v1 a Sith. I die, he goes on to kill hundreds. He dies, I go on to save hundreds. i have a vested interest for the greater good to survive by any means necessary.
it all depends HOW you do it (i tk his saber off so i can kill the poodoo... probably dsp. Im desperate to find a way to survive this, i have a mission to uphold, probably not)
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Random Numbers
Commander
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| vong wrote: | heh i would personally not argue, i dont see it as wrong. I am getting an advantage in a Life or Death combat.
I am 1v1 a Sith. I die, he goes on to kill hundreds. He dies, I go on to save hundreds. i have a vested interest for the greater good to survive by any means necessary.
it all depends HOW you do it (i tk his saber off so i can kill the poodoo... probably dsp. Im desperate to find a way to survive this, i have a mission to uphold, probably not) |
If you were my player you would go on to kill and main hundreds of people  ..... if that DSP made you turn, that is. Then again, since Im not a GM in SW, I havent decided if I would give any darkside points for harming people with the force.
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vong
Jedi
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:16 am Post subject: |
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"A Jedi uses the force for defense, never for attack" Yoda
If I am being attacked by a Sith, and loosing, I would count that as a defensive move. Even if I attacked a Sith knowing what he would do if I did not, that counts as an attack in the defense of others. Yes a slippery slope, but if me getting a DSP saves 100s of lives, then so be it, ill start atoning for saving 100s of lives right away 
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Random Numbers
Commander
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| vong wrote: | "A Jedi uses the force for defense, never for attack" Yoda
If I am being attacked by a Sith, and loosing, I would count that as a defensive move. Even if I attacked a Sith knowing what he would do if I did not, that counts as an attack in the defense of others. Yes a slippery slope, but if me getting a DSP saves 100s of lives, then so be it, ill start atoning for saving 100s of lives right away |
First of all I want to apologise for hijacking this thread....
Would you count using Force Lightning as acceptable in self defense? Cause thats basically what your are saying. At least to my understanding. Im not saying your wrong to accept that dps, I would too. But I dont think Yoda would. And I dont think thats what he meant.
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cheshire
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:47 am Post subject: |
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It is an interesting dilemma. At the very least one has to admit that turning off the saber isn't exactly how a saber fight it "supposed to go." The point of a duel is that people are relatively equally armed. Is it DSP worthy? I'm not sure. There is a difference between penetrating an opponent's defenses, disarming an opponent, and killing someone who was never armed to begin with. The first of these is clearly not DSP worthy. The last is obviously DSP worthy. So, now we're left with two questions. The first of which is whether or not it is evil to disarm an opponent and kill them before they can get their weapon back. The second question is whether turning the saber off is penetrating a defense, disarming the opponent, or something in between.
Note, I don't pretend to have the answer, but really just wanted to make sure that we clarify the questions.
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vong
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| Random Numbers wrote: | | vong wrote: | "A Jedi uses the force for defense, never for attack" Yoda
If I am being attacked by a Sith, and loosing, I would count that as a defensive move. Even if I attacked a Sith knowing what he would do if I did not, that counts as an attack in the defense of others. Yes a slippery slope, but if me getting a DSP saves 100s of lives, then so be it, ill start atoning for saving 100s of lives right away |
First of all I want to apologise for hijacking this thread....
Would you count using Force Lightning as acceptable in self defense? Cause thats basically what your are saying. At least to my understanding. Im not saying your wrong to accept that dps, I would too. But I dont think Yoda would. And I dont think thats what he meant. |
Its a fine line - you get one DSP for using Force Lightning hands down. thats a Hate force power. And you are using the Force power for direct attack... so dunno, thats a different story.
i see using TK to turn off a saber as not a direct attack. i mean you use LSC to kill people all the time without issue, no? Using force jump to get to the second level to kill people shooting at you? its all a fine line and as cheshire says no one has the answer, it all has to be your gut feeling "was what he did evil" and if its yes, then DSP.
| cheshire wrote: | It is an interesting dilemma. At the very least one has to admit that turning off the saber isn't exactly how a saber fight it "supposed to go." The point of a duel is that people are relatively equally armed. Is it DSP worthy? I'm not sure. There is a difference between penetrating an opponent's defenses, disarming an opponent, and killing someone who was never armed to begin with. The first of these is clearly not DSP worthy. The last is obviously DSP worthy. So, now we're left with two questions. The first of which is whether or not it is evil to disarm an opponent and kill them before they can get their weapon back. The second question is whether turning the saber off is penetrating a defense, disarming the opponent, or something in between.
Note, I don't pretend to have the answer, but really just wanted to make sure that we clarify the questions. |
I think the line is using the power in A)Anger or B) to DIRECTLY attack someone. in this case you are using your saber to kill, the TK to give yourself a combat advantage.
but yes, there is going to be no real answer that everyone likes, so just pick what you think it shoudl be and go with it GM is always right
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:52 am Post subject: |
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I think attitude and intent are the key factors here. Luke uses the Force to kill millions when he destroys the first Death Star. But, it is considered a defensive use as it saves the lives all all the rebel on Yavin 4, and eventually leads to the destruction of the Sith and the resoration of the Republic.
I think the DSP that goes with some powers is mostly a game balance thing, but can be rationalized as ythat the Jedi must channel negative emotions to cause the effect. So with Force lighting or TK kill the Jedi must be thinking things like "Die! Sufferin torment" and so on. As for Force Lighting, I think that that power is designed to inflict pain rather than kill, making it worthy of a DSP in almost all circumstances.
If I were running this situation, whether or not this action warranted a DSP would depend upon just what the Jedi's reasons for using this trick were, what specific evil he was preventing (knowing that the Sith would do evil in the future would be too vague to warrant the tactic, although stopping the Sith from killing someone else right then and there would make it okay with me), and then I'd set the difficulty so high as to ensure that it doesn't happen very often in the campaign.
Difficult,+4D (called shot), +Control or Sense would seem to be enough to make it fairly useless unless the character has a significant edge in Force skills, and probably spends Cps or an FP.
Or maybe, I'd just use the opponent's Lightsaber Combat defense with a called shot penalty.
But attitude and intent are IMO key. |
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Random Numbers
Commander
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | It is an interesting dilemma. At the very least one has to admit that turning off the saber isn't exactly how a saber fight it "supposed to go." The point of a duel is that people are relatively equally armed. Is it DSP worthy? I'm not sure. There is a difference between penetrating an opponent's defenses, disarming an opponent, and killing someone who was never armed to begin with. The first of these is clearly not DSP worthy. The last is obviously DSP worthy. So, now we're left with two questions. The first of which is whether or not it is evil to disarm an opponent and kill them before they can get their weapon back. The second question is whether turning the saber off is penetrating a defense, disarming the opponent, or something in between.
Note, I don't pretend to have the answer, but really just wanted to make sure that we clarify the questions. |
I wouldnt consider anything short of torture evil when it comes to defeating a darksider. Short of killing innocent bystanders...perhaps.
He is considered armed until dead. My point here is that it doesnt really matter if its evil. To me it's more of what the force lets you get away with.
Can you:
Poke a darksiders eyes out with tk?
Drop a 50000kg stone (letting go of tk)?
Directly throw a stone that does damage?
Turn of his lightsaber just as your lightsaber is about to make contact?
So is all above ok without getting a dsp?
What other force power beside the telekinetic (and force push) has the dsp rule about harming others? Never mind force lightning and other dark side powers.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| You simply have to go by trial and error during the next session... |
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Random Numbers
Commander
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | You simply have to go by trial and error during the next session... |
Haha...you would get 6 dsp each session if it was up to me!
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cheshire
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Random Numbers wrote: |
He is considered armed until dead.
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Fair point. It's silly to talk of disarming a guy who can stir your entrails with his brain.
| Quote: |
My point here is that it doesnt really matter if its evil. To me it's more of what the force lets you get away with.
Can you:
Poke a darksiders eyes out with tk?
Drop a 50000kg stone (letting go of tk)?
Directly throw a stone that does damage?
Turn of his lightsaber just as your lightsaber is about to make contact?
So is all above ok without getting a dsp?
What other force power beside the telekinetic (and force push) has the dsp rule about harming others? Never mind force lightning and other dark side powers. |
Well this is exactly the question is it As to your set of questions:
No.
No.
No.
And, this is exactly what is in question.
I think the only reason why we're discussing this is because activating or deactivating the TK isn't directly causing the damage. Note that I'm not saying that it's right or wrong yet. I'm just trying to get more clarity on the issue.
Would tripping the Darksider with the Force be wrong?
Would tripping him hoping that he'll drop his lightsaber be wrong?
Would it be wrong for the Jedi to use his hands to perform a joint-lock on the Darksider, preventing him from using his saber?
Would it be wrong for the Jedi to use the same joint-lock with the Force?
I think these questions are much more analogous to the situation.
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Random Numbers
Commander
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: |
Would tripping the Darksider with the Force be wrong?
Would tripping him hoping that he'll drop his lightsaber be wrong?
Would it be wrong for the Jedi to use his hands to perform a joint-lock on the Darksider, preventing him from using his saber?
Would it be wrong for the Jedi to use the same joint-lock with the Force?
I think these questions are much more analogous to the situation. |
I dont even think one of my own questions would/should cause a darkside point. Not against an equal foe. If you use the force excessevly it would. But that's not really tied to the force skill. More of a Jedi thing where Jedi is more easily lured to the dark side cause of their connection to the force.
So my not so personal opinioneted answer to your questions would be:
Yes, if you use it to kill him.
No
No
Yes, if you use it to kill him.
The obvious use for force push/telekinetics would be to regain your stance or prevent the Jedi from doing you harm. Defensively. Just dont hurt him with it. Weird. Anything else would be house rule in my opinion.
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Hellcat
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | So, now we're left with two questions. The first of which is whether or not it is evil to disarm an opponent and kill them before they can get their weapon back. The second question is whether turning the saber off is penetrating a defense, disarming the opponent, or something in between.
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On the first question I think it depends on intent. If I'm absolutely out to kill them and I shut it off then decapitate them, then yeah I'd say it's worthy of a DSP. If I'm looking just to end the fight and am trying to incapacitate them but end up killing instead, then I'm more in a grey area that I think could go either way depending on a GM's choice.
On the second question, I don't think shutting off an opponent's lightsaber is penetrating their defense. It's much more disarming them to me because you've completely eliminated the defense even if it's only for a few seconds. As long as they have no chance of blocking with their own blade there is practically no defense to penetrate.
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ggmoridin
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:34 am Post subject: |
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id thought about this trick awhile ago and came up with a different idea of going about it... instead of trying to find a switch, use a few rounds while only defending (may work) to use the force to find the crystal in the saber, shouldnt be to hard as it resonates with the force and then use TK to misalign said crystal shutting it down till repaired.
not sure if it would be harder or not but it would certainly annoy the hell out of the opponent as he cant switch it back on  |
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