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cheshire
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 Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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We know that the Dark side is accessed through fear, anger, and aggression. We also know that the Dark side is a quicker way to power, however it is not necessarily inherently stronger. Thus I think that we are without grounds of saying that the Force is necessarily enhanced by emotions. If it is not enhanced by emotions, then feeling good will probably not do much for you. Obi-Wan was obviously pained by defeating Vader in their duel. Likewise he felt satisfied at creating a diversion to help Luke escape. Though I don't think that either of those facts had bearing on his use of the Force.
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Random Numbers
Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
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Location: Gladsheim
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe he had such love for Anakin that he accessed the Peace, Love and Understanding side of the force that he was made imortal by the incredible powers of the real light side of the force.
Could be that Yoda also had lots of love in him. Also Anakin loved his son enough to break free of the Emperor. Hence...imortality!
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Having played with Random for years, or is it decades now, I can say that all his characters with some kind of 'mystical' power usually end up twisted and evil. This was true back in the AD&D days, it was true in Warhammer RPG and its mostly true in SW.. The only thing saving him in SW is that mechanically theres no middle ground where he can try (and fail) to skirt the edge of darkness... |
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Random Numbers
Commander
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Location: Gladsheim
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Having played with Random for years, or is it decades now, I can say that all his characters with some kind of 'mystical' power usually end up twisted and evil. This was true back in the AD&D days, it was true in Warhammer RPG and its mostly true in SW.. The only thing saving him in SW is that mechanically theres no middle ground where he can try (and fail) to skirt the edge of darkness... |
Why do you think that I'm trying to hijack the Jedi code? But the manipulative skills of some people here, turned me into an advocate of love. I'm not sure if I'm winning or losing...
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Raven Redstar
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Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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I think Cheshire is doing an excellent job of arguing this so I'll bow out now.
One suggestion though Random: If the force isn't working well for you, you might consider using Ta-Ree spells instead. They have the equivalent of force lightning which can be used in self defense with no darkside point. However, building up skill in Ta-Ree magic is much more costly, and harder to find teachers. Or, stop playing force sensitives... learn to get by with a good blaster, and no mercy. |
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Random Numbers
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | I think Cheshire is doing an excellent job of arguing this so I'll bow out now.
One suggestion though Random: If the force isn't working well for you, you might consider using Ta-Ree spells instead. They have the equivalent of force lightning which can be used in self defense with no darkside point. However, building up skill in Ta-Ree magic is much more costly, and harder to find teachers. Or, stop playing force sensitives... learn to get by with a good blaster, and no mercy. |
I was under the impression that Ta-Ree spells could only be used in a certain area.
And about playing a non-force sensitive...my next character will be a pilot/smuggler. This Jedi was rolled randomly. My characters in Star Wars have relative short life span...I wonder why...
To me, the struggle between the light and the dark side of the force is what makes a Jedi worth playing. The feeling of standing on a slippery slope is somehow satisfying.
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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Technically speaking, they can only be used on Kathol. 
I don't disagree with you about the slippery slope of being a Jedi, but what you're talking about is more like base jumping. There is plenty that a Jedi can do to slip and slide without the BBQ.
Most of these are a little more subtle, like using affect mind to get out of legal issues. Telekinetic pranks. Reading a girl's mind so that you better know how to seduce her. Using Detoxify poison to win drinking contests so you can loot away. Telekinesis can be used in lots of fun ways, like opening doors... to ships... |
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | The only thing saving him in SW is that mechanically theres no middle ground where he can try (and fail) to skirt the edge of darkness... |
I believe there is plenty of middle ground, using Telekenisis to win a game of chance (as Qui-gon did in The Phantom Menace) is not good even if the goal is noble. It's not evil and he wouldn't get a DSP (in my games) for that but he's certainly not being a shining example of Truth, Justice and the Jedi way.
However as Raven points out Random has not given many middle ground type suggestions. In my mind repeating blasters on the stun setting are fine for a Jedi and but why bother putting points in blaster when Lightsabers are effective in almost all situations?
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Random Numbers
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Joined: 12 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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Since we are playing in the post clone wars time, the Jedi order isn't going to do anything to me if I don't follow their stupid code. I have 0d in Jedi knowledge and is a force prodigy. With my whopping 2d in knowledge I'll just wing it as I go. My master was killed by a dark Jedi before getting to that part.
I have one dsp that I'm trying to get rid of by not killing people att all.
My fellow Jedi is a former pit fighter with 2 or 3 dps and he is wielding an evil lightsaber. He's got a black 'stormtrooper helmet' that I suspect is really Lord Vader's helmet. even if he isn't wearing it it's going to mess him up. So I'm really the good guy in the gang. Even if my disadvatages are a bit on the tricky side.
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Random Numbers
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | The only thing saving him in SW is that mechanically theres no middle ground where he can try (and fail) to skirt the edge of darkness... |
I believe there is plenty of middle ground, using Telekenisis to win a game of chance (as Qui-gon did in The Phantom Menace) is not good even if the goal is noble. It's not evil and he wouldn't get a DSP (in my games) for that but he's certainly not being a shining example of Truth, Justice and the Jedi way.
However as Raven points out Random has not given many middle ground type suggestions. In my mind repeating blasters on the stun setting are fine for a Jedi and but why bother putting points in blaster when Lightsabers are effective in almost all situations? |
How true. There is no way that I could spend points in blaster when I have several important Jedi skills I need to spend points in. Willpower comes to mind for one thing 
But repeating blasters are cool, even in the hands of a Jedi. Pew Pew!
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Random Numbers wrote: |
Why do you think that I'm trying to hijack the Jedi code? But the manipulative skills of some people here, turned me into an advocate of love. I'm not sure if I'm winning or losing... |
I'm not sure we can win or loose a discussion. I thought we were exchanging ideas, and testing the merits of ideas proposed.
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Random Numbers
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | Random Numbers wrote: |
Why do you think that I'm trying to hijack the Jedi code? But the manipulative skills of some people here, turned me into an advocate of love. I'm not sure if I'm winning or losing... |
I'm not sure we can win or loose a discussion. I thought we were exchanging ideas, and testing the merits of ideas proposed. |
I'm not competing against you...it's myself that I'm fighting. I don't know what point I'm trying to prove 
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Random Numbers
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | Random Numbers wrote: | | What I meant was that the Jedi are not doing things out of the pleasure of doing good. They are doing it out of duty. That's what makes them grey. |
I disagree, Jedi still have a choice. They can choose not to do their duty and basically be evil
They can choose to interpret the Jedi code and republic laws in a self serving way and be more of a neutral element. For instance A Jedi that only uses his powers for defence... of himself and takes no interest in the conflicts around him may be able to justify his actions according to the Jedi code and various laws but he'd be obaying the letter of the law not the spirit of the law. Certainly not what I'd call evil but not good either.
They can also choose to go above the call of duty and strive to make the universe a better place regardless of the cost to themselves, this is what I'd consider to be good.
Regardless of emotions it is possible to be good or bad. Helping someone when you have little or nothing to gain is generally going to be good regardless of how it makes you feel.
Now if the Jedi were droids or were somehow programed and had no choice in the matter I might agree with your assesment but as it stands I agree with Cheshire and atgxtg. |
I totally missed this one.
About the programming. The Jedis are indoctrinated from early years. I'm not sure about their choice in the matter. Even so, some fall to the temptation of the dark side. They are told to detatch themself from people and rid themself of emotions. Good for the force? Possibly. But to me that's close to the dark side.
Completely detached from above argument: If I use the force for good while resenting the people that I help. What is that going to do to me and the force?
To all: Oh, and I do really enjoy arguing this with intelligent and far more educated people than me! And if I missinterpret stuff, please correct me. I'm Sweedish and english is not my native language.
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remo moxey
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Joined: 20 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:22 am Post subject: |
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Wow, good thread here.
I've just got a couple of things to point out.....
Esoomian is right, Qui-Gon used Telekinesis to roll the chance cube, but I'd also like to point out the fact that Jedi use less than stellar methods all throughout episodes 1-3.
The biggest non "Jedi" like actions used is THEFT! A Jedi is not supposed to get emotionally involved because it leads to the Darkside.......but stealing is okay!?!?!?!?!?!?!
It's been posted MANY times in this thread that the Jedi code is black and white. I hate to say it but stealing is black. Obi steals Gen. Grievous ship after killing him. Anakin's no better. He steals speeders and ships.....lol. Just because you steal it from a "bad guy" doesn't make it okay. GL has said the "ends don't justify the means" when talking about the Jedi.
Point number two is the second Death Star and the "Clerks" conversation about outside contractors. I don't think the Empire was using outside contractors but they did use slave labor and conscripts. Did Luke get a DSP for every innocent that he didn't save because he drug dear old Daddy to the shuttle? The Jedi is supposed to do everything in his power to protect innocent life.
Remember there is no gray.....with Jedi it's black and white. There's going to be "Jedi-Nazi's" out there that GM (No soup for you). Then there's going to be GM's that play it loose.
Even George couldn't figure out how to have Jedi fight against an army of beings, so he had the "bad guys" use a droid army.......but then he also let the Jedi lead a slave army, but that's a whole other conversation....lol. |
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Random Numbers
Commander
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:02 am Post subject: |
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I don't see anything about stealing in the Jedi code. Not even with the use of the force. If it's not for personal gain it shouldn't be a problem. It's honor the law, but the law could be required to be broken by an agent in the line of duty.
To clear another thing up. I don't really see the Jedi order so much as a religious order...more of a communist experiment of utopia. The force is a living thing, but it's not a god. Although I guess some could argue the opposite.
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