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BreederofPuppets
Ensign
Joined: 23 Aug 2009
Posts: 27
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 Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:46 pm Post subject: d6 Space Ship Construction |
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I have read more than a few people unhappy with the d6 Space ship building system. So, the purpose of this thread is to find out:
1) What are problems?
2) What ideas do you have to make it better?
A few issues I have noticed:
Engine cost (in areas and credits) doesn't scale.
The formulas in the books don't always match what's used to make the example ships (hyperdrive engine cost, normal engine costs, etc).
Weapon selection is...lacking. No ion weapons (or stun for ships), for example. |
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Grimace
Captain
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What are problems? |
1. It's confused. It provides stuff for real detailed ship construction, but then doesn't easily explain or provide examples for how to DO the detailed ship construction.
2. Scale? What scale? Oh, you mean that thing that they throw on as an afterthought based on the tonnage of the craft? Strange that it has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the cost of things. Or that there's no rules for having different scaled weapons mounted on a ship. It's just assumed that the weapons on the ship happen to be the same scale size.
3. Not really very quick. Granted, it would be okay for someone who wants to meticulously craft a ship in detail, but it doesn't help a GM who wants to throw together 4 or 5 ships that the PCs could possibly buy.
4. As you said, the weapons and other accessories as add-ons to ships is sorely lacking.
5. There's no real offering for any different levels of technology. It's all assumed to basically be "star wars-ish" in technology level. There's a smidgen of difference in the weapons - going from machine cannons to blasters- but that's about it.
| Quote: | | What ideas do you have to make it better? |
http://d6.ironsind.com/ShipGen/shipgen.php
I'm also, slowly, working on an upgraded form of this, with more options available for things to add on to and into ships. But that's currently on the back burner. |
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wolfe
Lieutenant
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 91
Location: earth-need a vacation
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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Well Grimace I see you have hit all it's good points..  |
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BreederofPuppets
Ensign
Joined: 23 Aug 2009
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Grimace wrote: |
1. It's confused. It provides stuff for real detailed ship construction, but then doesn't easily explain or provide examples for how to DO the detailed ship construction. |
The example ships seemed, to me anyhow, to be the examples of how to do detailed ship construction. But, it's not a step by step procedure, which would have been really nice to have. After going through it a few times, I found it fairly simple, but a step by step would have saved me a heart ache here and there. Plus it might have fixed the flaws in the formulas.
| Grimace wrote: | | 2. Scale? What scale? Oh, you mean that thing that they throw on as an afterthought based on the tonnage of the craft? Strange that it has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the cost of things. Or that there's no rules for having different scaled weapons mounted on a ship. It's just assumed that the weapons on the ship happen to be the same scale size. |
This is true. WEG Star Wars has the same issue. Turbo lasers are listed as doing 2D damage, on capital scale, and have equally low toughness. But it works out (fairly well) with the interaction between ships of different scale.
Costs verses scale...it's rough nut to crack. Right now, the cost of a d6 craft to a Star Craft is pretty close, so any adjustment in one place will throw everything off. Not saying it doesn't need to be changed, just that it will take some work.
| Grimace wrote: | | 3. Not really very quick. Granted, it would be okay for someone who wants to meticulously craft a ship in detail, but it doesn't help a GM who wants to throw together 4 or 5 ships that the PCs could possibly buy. |
That's a fine line to handle. Detailed craft construction always takes time, weather you want it to or not. Fast creation leaves holes. Often, the best way to create a ship quickly is have something to use as a base, and adjust from there. Or you could use templates, but that's a lot like Saga, and that'll get you tase'ed 'round here.
| Grimace wrote: | | 4. As you said, the weapons and other accessories as add-ons to ships is sorely lacking. |
Then again, the WEG system is lacking in weapons. Lasers, blaster (if you can tell the difference), proton torpedoes, concussion missiles (other than the damage, I can't tell the difference), ion weapons and mines. Is there anything else in Star Wars? Turbo lasers are just lasers with really long range, it seems.
On a side note, I do like the fact that d6 Space has separate damage and range boosts.
| Grimace wrote: | | 5. There's no real offering for any different levels of technology. It's all assumed to basically be "star wars-ish" in technology level. There's a smidgen of difference in the weapons - going from machine cannons to blasters- but that's about it. |
That's an issue of a completely open system like d6, I think. The difference between personal scale laser weapons and solid projectiles in d6 is also next to non-existent. Star Wars merely said normal armor protected better against solid weapons, and lowered the damage of slug weapons by a die or two.
To represent lower tech, you use lower dice. Perhaps tech levels are needed. Each tech level acts a +3 or -3 modifier to all dice roles verses difference tech levels (an outdated tech three cruiser firing on a top of the line, tech five cruiser would suffer a -6 to hit, -6 to damage, while the new cruiser would gain a +6 to hit and a +6 to damage, along with a +6 to detect it on sensor roles, etc).
| Grimace wrote: | | http://d6.ironsind.com/ShipGen/shipgen.php |
I'm gonna look, and see what you got. You have a lot of good points here, and I am hopeful. But I'm on a government computer, so that is limiting on what I can down load.
Now, I am a big fan of the Silhouette system, and it's vehicle construction; they focus on the end result, and not individual parts. They say that if the vehicles requires a power-plant that produces this much power, but is 0only this size, the engineers will figure out a way to do it. Since they will be using better materials and high technology, they cost will go up. But I have no idea how to blend the systems, nor do I know if I want to; there is something to be said about getting a certain brand of hyperdrive, or a certain style of laser cannon.
Any other problems and fixes? |
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wolfe
Lieutenant
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 91
Location: earth-need a vacation
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Then again, the WEG system is lacking in weapons. Lasers, blaster (if you can tell the difference), proton torpedoes, concussion missiles (other than the damage, I can't tell the difference), ion weapons and mines. Is there anything else in Star Wars? |
Let's see, to start with we have particle cannons, railguns and mass drivers, various plasma weapons (some ignore shields, some don't), nukes, pulse wave cannons,bio plasmatic weapons, bio energy weapons, what ever the hell a nova generator is, energy web generators, null-burst projectors, magnetic bombards, meta-chrystal phase shifters, hyperspace pulsemass generators, varat'k snarap (no idea just what that is), navigational deflectors and photon torpedoes (don't blame me I didn't make them) amongst a great many.
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BreederofPuppets
Ensign
Joined: 23 Aug 2009
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Where did they come from? Only a few have I seen in the game (not that I'm an expert).
Particle cannons, railguns and mass drivers are a form of solid slug (but much cooler). Are they Star Wars "modern"?
The only plasma weapons I have seen are cutters for ships.
Pulse wave cannons sounds like a precursor to blasters (I loump them in the same pile, but that's just me.
The bio weapons sound Yuzon Vong, and those annoy me. (cough cough Tyranids & Zerg did it better cough cough)
And the rest seem one shot deals only show cased on one ship or one from a sole sector. Then again...
Speaking of which, all these weapons...should there be a looser form for creating them? Like, you pick the damage of the weapon, the range, and any special abilities, and factoring them together gets the cost. Like you make a 4D weapon with really long range, and you slap a "tubro laser" title. If you replace the extended range with "disabling" it's an ion weapon. Or you could bump up the damage, add a homing quality, and limit it to one shot, and you have a missile. Or something.
Or would you rather have individual weapons to purchase and modify? |
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wolfe
Lieutenant
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 91
Location: earth-need a vacation
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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Every single one of them is from a WEG SW book.
Particle cannons do not and never have formed a solid slug.
Pulse wave are nothing like Blasters or lasers, they fire spatial disruptions.
The precursor to blasters are "beamers" and "blast" weapons.
Bio weapons are not Vong and have been in star wars quite a few years before Vong were even thought of.
there are so many weapons that star wars tech considers obsolete |
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Grimace
Captain
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
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| Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| BreederofPuppets wrote: |
Or would you rather have individual weapons to purchase and modify? |
I'm a much bigger fan of having individual things to purchase and modify rather than having to "scratch build" things. That's one of the reasons why I severely disliked some things in the new D6 core books (like Magic). So if you're going to make something, make a list of things that can be used right out of the box. No need to have to worry about building the stats for it. It's just X. Or you can buy just Y. But no X+2-ab=5.3b stuff for equipment, please.
And Breeder, did you happen to take a look at the link I provided? Or were you able to? It's not a download, just a website to visit, in case you're wondering. |
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BreederofPuppets
Ensign
Joined: 23 Aug 2009
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| Grimace wrote: |
I'm a much bigger fan of having individual things to purchase and modify rather than having to "scratch build" things. |
I can see this. I was a big fan of making things from scratch, until I actually played Star Wars. Upgrading each item was awesome, to me. As was tracking down each near unique weapon. So, yeah, I can agree.
| Grimace wrote: | | That's one of the reasons why I severely disliked some things in the new D6 core books (like Magic). So if you're going to make something, make a list of things that can be used right out of the box. No need to have to worry about building the stats for it. It's just X. Or you can buy just Y. But no X+2-ab=5.3b stuff for equipment, please. |
I like having both, to be honest. Have a list of basic "items", along with the ability to make (balanced) stuff for my own game. List fireball and mind reading and the slow spell, and leave a system I can easily adapt "freezing rain" and "confusion cloud" into. Have a blaster cannon, and leave a system to make a particle cannon.
Speaking of which:
| wolfe wrote: |
Every single one of them is from a WEG SW book. |
Which book? Or are they from a whole lot of them?
| wolfe wrote: | | Particle cannons do not and never have formed a solid slug. |
I would argue this, as no one stated how big the slug part of a slug thrower has to be, but...even if I was right to say so, it adds nothing to the conversation.
| wolfe wrote: | been in star wars quite a few years before Vong were even thought of.
there are so many weapons that star wars tech considers obsolete |
I always figured that Blasters and Lasers and proton torpedoes were the standard level weapon systems, either more efficient and effective that comparable weapon systems. Am I right on that, or is technology actually progressing in Star Wars?
| Grimace wrote: | | And Breeder, did you happen to take a look at the link I provided? Or were you able to? It's not a download, just a website to visit, in case you're wondering. |
Ah. Not a download. No, not yet. I will look at it then. It might take a few days to give it the attention it deserves. |
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wolfe
Lieutenant
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 91
Location: earth-need a vacation
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| Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:14 am Post subject: |
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Your just going to have to start going through your WEG books to find the weapons, they are there (though not all are given actual game stats).
| Quote: | | would argue this, as no one stated how big the slug part of a slug thrower has to be |
Yes because massless charged particles traveling at faster then light velocities just has sooo much in common with slug fired from slug throwers. 
I don't even want to know or care to know how you got to comparing charged particle emitters to slug throwers. |
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BreederofPuppets
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Joined: 23 Aug 2009
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| wolfe wrote: | | Your just going to have to start going through your WEG books to find the weapons, they are there (though not all are given actual game stats). |
Was kinda hoping all the weapons you listed had stats, but, not really expecting it. Alright, cool. I'll look through what I have, and see if they have things in common enough to list out (like all particle accelerators are short ranged and ignore shields, or that bio-weapons have an area effect, for example).
| wolfe wrote: | | Yes because massless charged particles traveling at faster then light velocities just has sooo much in common with slug fired from slug throwers. |
Particle, or a really, really small slug. The term "massless" was just added (and confusing when added to a particle, which implies something with mass). I'm no science guru, but I figure if you take something solid- even something small- and shoot it out of a weapon, you have a solid slug thrower.
| wolfe wrote: | | I don't even want to know or care to know how you got to comparing charged particle emitters to slug throwers. |
Because I wasn't. I was comparing a particle cannon- which you listed with a rail gun and mass driver (both slug throwers, just not chemical based)- with a slug thrower.
But...like I said, this adds nothing to the conversation. So, again, even if I am right, what does it matter? |
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BreederofPuppets
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Joined: 23 Aug 2009
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| Grimace wrote: | | And Breeder, did you happen to take a look at the link I provided? Or were you able to? It's not a download, just a website to visit, in case you're wondering. |
I looked, I tested, and used. And oh man, is it cool.
So...how do I get it offline? Where are the rules it uses listed? How did they determine the cost, the hull limits, the weapon space available, weapon ranges, etc. I know it was based off Wizards of the Coast's Starships of the Galaxy. More importantly, do think it covers everything? |
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Lostboy
Commander
Joined: 22 Aug 2008
Posts: 384
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| Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| I checked out the site and it was good but rather than the weapons list you should allow the user to type in the stats manualy because it felt pidgonholed. You also did not provide info on the default system in the starwars universe. i.e. Which shield or drive system is the one that is most often used by by starwars ship or standard technology. |
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Grimace
Captain
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
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| Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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Lostboy, as I mentioned a bit earlier in this thread, I don't like having to create everything from scratch. So I didn't create a system that allowed for plugging in every increment for weapons. It's a standard item per cost sort of thing. The only variable aspect is the sensors, because the variables were just too many to encompass everything.
As far as the Star Wars equivalent...well, this wasn't originally created to emulate Star Wars. It was created to make various technologies and types of spaceships for a D6 game that wasn't necessarily Star Wars. If you want Star Wars specific items (weapons, drive systems, sensors, etc), there's a handy sheet that Krapou worked up using my system. It's called "Starship Pricing". If you can't find a link to it anywhere on this site I can see about posting a link to a file share for it. It's the Star Wars version that I worked up and he was able to tweak to make it fit better. It's not in the nice, clickable format like the system on the website, as I'm not a PHP coder (had another fellow do the basic D6 starship generator in PHP code for me), so you'll have to do the math work to create Star Wars ships.
Breeder, I have the long hand version of the system that can be sentby email if you want. You have to do all of the math yourself, but it gives you the numbers and methods for calculating everything. The weapons and ranges and stuff were just "created" based on things already done or things done in comparison. And when you ask if it covers everything....heh...not hardly. A fair bit, yes, but not everything. Thus one reason why I have the project for expanding it on my agenda to do eventually. Also, as I mentioned above, there's a Star Wars only version of the long hand version of ship construction available out on the web. |
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BreederofPuppets
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Joined: 23 Aug 2009
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:28 am Post subject: |
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I love to get the (complete) long hand version. I'll end up modifying it for my own use, and if you're interested, I'll e-mail the additions. I'll PM you the e-mail address.
Thanks for the offer. |
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