Two Lightsabers

[Xzil Maru]

[RedFox]

[MA-3PO]

[RedFox]

[Error]

Hmm.

At this point this is kind of off topic, but I was wondering about the dual lightsaber combat thing. Why not just keep two "copies" of Lightsaber Combat up at once to use two different sabers? I see this as fairly reasonable.

I don't know if I'd call Darth Maul's Lightstaff a dual wielded weapon, though. Perhaps for non-standard lightsabers like that, only the builder of the weapon uses it regularly. Or perhaps a Lightstaff skill, separate from Lightsaber and Lightsaber Combat.
_________________
The only words of explanation you need for any concept in the entire Star Wars universe are the words Science Fiction and Space Opera.

[Hellcat]

The double-bladed lightsaber would have to be either a specialization or an advanced skill, and personally I'd go with an advanced skill. It's just as deadly to the wielder, due to having a blade on each end of the handle, as it is to the person it's being used by. Kun and Maul really had to know what they were doing to wield it with both blades activated and not cause injury to themselves. And it seems like they first had to gain proficency with the standard lightsaber before they could even begin to try to wield the double-bladed lightsaber. Fighting with a dual phase lightsaber or with two lightsabers at once just seems to be specializations of the lightsaber dexterity skill.
_________________
FLUFFY for President!!!!

Wanted Poster

[Error]

I am still at a loss as to how to handle this. I'm going to present the options I have considered, as well as their possible pros and cons:

Specialization (i.e. Lightsaber: dual lightsabers)
Pros: Simple and straightforward; makes the most sense for characters whose main fighting style is dual sabers...also implies that the given character is LESS skilled with a single blade than with two.
Cons: Very cheap to get another die.
Bottom line: Worth considering.

Advanced Skill (i.e. (A) Dual Lightsabers)
Pros: Very difficult to achieve (presumably, 5D is required in Lightsaber before this skill may be considered...might even make sense to be 6 or 7D).
Cons: Since (A) adds to the original skill when the original skill is used, that would make any character who takes this as an (A) skill far more powerful with a single blade than with two, which defeats the entire purpose of (A) in the first place.
Bottom line: Doesn't make much sense.

A separate DEXTERITY skill (i.e. DEXTERITY > Dual Lightsabers)
Pros: Also very straightforward. Normal speed of development, as well.
Cons: Why should a character be able to develop a dual-wielding style without needing to put a single die in Lightsaber?
Bottom line: Probably not.

A new Force power (i.e. Dual Lightsaber Combat, Lightstaff Combat, etc.)
Pros: No skill tweaking required, can be as difficult to achieve as the GM wants (through the use of prereqs).
Cons: I can swing two sticks, but I'm not force-sensitive.
Bottom line: Worth considering.

Other things I have considered include the addition of DEXTERITY > Dual Wielding, which in and of itself would have no actual game function except when specializations are applied (Dual Wield: blaster pistol, for example).

Anyway, tell me what you all think
_________________
The only words of explanation you need for any concept in the entire Star Wars universe are the words Science Fiction and Space Opera.

[Hellcat]

I still think that the use of dual lightsabers is a specialization rather than an advanced skill, I'm afraid.
_________________
FLUFFY for President!!!!

Wanted Poster

[Ardrikk]

After reading this thread and then discussing it with some of the players in my upcoming game, I think here's what we've decided to do.

Make them separate skills, under Dexterity:

Two Lightsabers

Dual Lightsaber

Two Blasters

Add another rule that these skills cannot be raised above the normal version of the skill, either Lightsaber or Blaster.

When using one of these fighting techniques, you gain 1 free action before multi-action penalties start counting against you. This action must, of course, be using this skill.

So, this gives you a nice actual mechanical benefit. It requires you to keep improving your normal skill if you want to keep improving this more specialized skill (not specialization, note). Therefore it doesn't fall into either the trap of making it so everyone would want to learn and fight this way nor does it add the dice you gain in the special skill on top of your normal skill. It's also expensive enough to justify what you get out of it and make it so not everyone will want it.

It also has the neat bit that someone who simply focuses on fighting with a single lightsaber (or blaster) can become more proficient overall than someone who's branching out into these flashy and daring techniques. This helps explain why 2 lightsabers didn't much help Anakin against Dooku in Episode II.

I dunno, I think it works for me and seems balanced enough.

[Gry Sarth]

I like your ruling Ardrikk. It's very simple and by the book. And it seems to work nicely. I'll give it a try someday.

[cheshire]

I think that if I had it to do all over again, I'd probably do it as a separate Dexterity skill. It sounds fair with a reasonable rate of development without overpowering a player.

[RedFox]

I'm in an odd mood and re-thinking my stance on this from a more conservative viewpoint:

I'm wondering why one would give someone special mechanical benefits for this when they don't, for example, get the same thing for weilding vibro-staves (or other "double-ended" weapons).

I'm leaning more, tonight, towards just ruling it "special effects" as far as your fighting style goes, whether it's florentine or double-bladed saber or whatever.

Then again, I do like the mechanical fiddly systems of having different saber styles, so... hmm.

Xzil Maru: I like the idea of using the mechanics I wrote out earlier for saber styles because I think it'd emulate stylistic differences in fighting well, kind of like in Heroes Die and other Stover fiction. What do you think?
_________________
Ooo, a droid! Can I fix it?

I have Star Wars stuff!

[Error]

I think I'm regarding it as a specialization of the basic lightsaber skill. I think the lightstaff would also get its own too.

My logic behind this is that the same kinds of things are already done with the existing skills in D6. For example, a character may have Scholar 4D but Scholar: Biology 5D. Doesn't it make the most sense to apply the same kind of game mechanic to what really is nothing more than a variant on the lightsaber skill? Also, it would provide a chance for the character to be better with two than one, and vice-versa (skills can surpass their specializations...p 34 in R&E).

If the character's main style of lightsaber combat is dual wielding, that's something he would probably specialize in. But if he loses a lightsaber, unless he's bothered to improve the original skill, he'll be out of luck. Specializations have this failsafe "detriment" built into them.

Now, this only takes care of the SKILL needed to flesh out two blades at the same time with no added benefits (i.e. combat as usual...except the character can choose which saber to use for regularly-penalized attacks/parries). As for extra attacks, less penalties, etc., I think that would best be handled by adding another force power. Something similar to lightsaber combat but with no penalty for a second parry, or another free attack, or whatever. Prereqs could be lightsaber combat and, say, combat sense.
_________________
The only words of explanation you need for any concept in the entire Star Wars universe are the words Science Fiction and Space Opera.

[Ardrikk]

The main problem with making them specializations, that we realized after discussing it some, is that specializations cost half as much to improve as normal skills. So basically, as long as someone always fights with two lightsabers, two blasters, or a double-bladed lightsaber, they can increase their skill in combat twice as fast and easily as someone doing it the more traditional way. And if these paths were so easy to improve on, why wouldn't everyone be using them?

So, for us, it was too dangerous to go this route, because it would give a huge incentive for everyone to go the two weapon fighting route.

I'd like to point you guys to this site, also:

http://www.verminary.com/rebellion/

This guy has done D20 to D6 conversion, both an overall guideline and also individually converting all (I think) of the stat blocks, powers, and whatnot out of the main D20 Star Wars books and various sourcebooks.

One thing in particular caught my eye that might add to this discussion. Here's his conversion of the double-bladed lightsaber from D20 to D6:

Lightsaber, Double-Bladed (DSS, pages 58-59;SWd20, page 117)
Model: Double-Bladed Lightsaber
Type: Lightsaber: Double-Bladed Lightsaber
Scale: Character
Cost: Not available for sale
Availability: 4, X
Difficulty: Difficult
Damage: 5D
Game Notes: Proper use of a double-bladed lightsaber requires the specialization "Lightsaber: Double-Bladed Lightsaber." Without the proper specialization, the difficulty to use a double-bladed lightsaber is one grade higher than normal (ie, Very Difficult), and none of the special benefits of the double-bladed lightsaber may be used. If used with only a single blade projected, a double-bladed lightsaber is treated as if it were a normal lightsaber. If properly trained, a Jedi wielding a double-bladed lightsaber gains a +5 bonus to all parry rolls made when both lightsaber blades are extended.

It's not exactly the method I decided on, but it is another interesting way to go.

[RedFox]

The problem with the Rebellion version is that it breaks a basic assumption of the D6 system, which is that bonuses are expressed in terms of Die Codes, which cannot exceed +2 without going to a new die.

A "proper" bonus would be +1D+2 instead of +5.
_________________
Ooo, a droid! Can I fix it?

I have Star Wars stuff!