Do I give this player a DSP?

[Savaad]

[masque]

[Jamfke]

I'm of a similar mind as Gry. DSPs don't pop up much at all in any of my games because I will always allow the character's evil deeds to creep up on them, tempting them to do more and more evil deeds. If they are mediocre role players, they'll just keep being bad guys and eventually get kicked in the head by some of the other players until they turn themselves around. If they are good role players, they will use the opportunity to make an excellent performance in trying to atone for their dark ways. I try to coach the mediocre players as best I can into doing this as it makes for a much better story than simply taking away their characters and using them against them later. In my whole time of GMing Star Wars (about 20 years now...geesh), I haven't given a single DSP and I've not heard a single complaint about it from anyone.
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[Gry Sarth]

Let me explain myself again. Giving a player a DSP doesn't mean that will be the only consequence for his actions, that would be ridiculous. The DSP is simply a game mechanic consequence, surely there must also be story consequences. All of the player's actions, be them good, evil or apathetic should have story consequences, vendettas building up or unexpected allies in the future. It should never be reduced to simple mechanics.
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[Ankhanu]

[Grimace]

The character *should* get a DSP for committing that act. What he did was just as evil as what the ISB agent did...possibly even more as the ISB was essentially "disguised to infiltrate and take out a military objective". So if the character thought the ISB agent was bad, he's missing the fact that he just became worse than the ISB agent.

Grant a DSP, whether he's force sensative or not. If you feel it was "in character" give him some bonus CPs. Definitely have the act bring "in game" reprecussions.

You *don't* have to think you're doing wrong to get a DSP. That's bordering on lunacy. Half the people out there murdering other people feel they are justified and "not doing anything wrong". Would you say that if a character came from a race who felt that if you smiled at them, it was okay to remove the offender's head, and he went out into the galaxy and started lopping off people's heads for smiling at him, he would never get a DSP? The character wouldn't think it was wrong...but we all know doing something like that is wrong. What about a race that considers torture, such as skinning a person alive, to be acceptable means to gather intelligence? They don't see anything wrong with it, as long its being used to try to gain intelligence, so would you not give them a DSP if they did this to other people in a game?

You can't go on the premise that you only get DSPs if the character feels it is wrong. There wouldn't be a "dark side" of the Force if that was the case. There is "right" and "wrong" in the Force, and murder, torture, foul things like that are what scream "wrong" and warrant DSPs.

And for those that say DSPs have no effect in a game.....what? Don't you utilize the "gain a DSP, roll a die. If the roll is less thant the number of DSPs, the character "succumbs" to the Dark Side and turns evil, the GM takes the character sheet and runs the character as an NPC bad guy that now the group will have to deal with sooner or later. This doesn't apply to only Force Users or Force sensative characters. The player LOSES the character to the Dark Side and that character can now become a major feature in the campaign, as a bad guy out to thwart the PCs missions.

The Dark Side doesn't care whether you're a Force User, FS, or NFS, it'll take you just the same if you let it. And the way you let it is by gaining DSPs by doing evil acts. You gain one...be careful. You gain another, you roll a die and if you get a 1, BAD NEWS! You get lucky and manage to roll good, the MOST DSPs you can have is 6. Once you get that 7th DSP, say bye-bye to your character. The DSPs are NOT just a tick on the page that means nothing. Use the rule and populate your campaign with a plethora of new bad guys that the players have carefully crafted and increased in skills for you.

Now, if you're running a Dark Side game, or one where you want "grey" and ambigious situations with lots of murder and torture and such, then have at it. But if you're running a heroic game, with good vs. evil and the PCs are supposed to be the good guys, then use DSPs as they are designed and snatch up those characters if a player feels doing evil things is the "cool" thing to do. Let them have their fun for a bit, and when the dice (the Force) fails them, and the Dark Side claims them, then make sure YOU claim the character. Tell the player to make a new character and have the black heart take the opportune moment to sneak away or stab the other PCs in the back and get away to plot its own quest for supremacy.

Okay...rant done.

[Esoomian]

[Scazar]

For those that might be curious as to the nature of said character who committed said evil act. He'sa guy in his 40s who fought in the clone wars as commando for the republic. When the New Order came he stayed in the military and won all kinds of awards as a commander and soldier, but along the way he realized that the Empire itself had become evil, from his dealing with higher officials and some of the missions he was sent on. Attacking corporations and stuff that didn't want to cooperate with the Empire and putting down minor insurrections with extremely harsh methods. So he retired. Unfortunately he knew too much by then, so the Empire took his family (wife + kids) and tortured them right in front of him until he agreed to keep working for them.

So he worked for them for another couple of years until he lost track of his family. He went awol to track them down, and discovered that they had been moved to a new planet, and had died there along with everyone else on the planet, in some Imperial experiment. So he joined the rebellion. The character personality is role-played as combination of the "us or them" attitude of Saul Tigh (BSG), the loyalty to the people who follow him and look to him of Josey Wales (The Outlaw Josey Wales), and the willingness to do whatever it takes of Denzel Washington's character in Man on Fire. Throw in the dry humor of Hicks from Aliens and you've got one helluva character personality to role-play.

The story arc i'm going for here is his journey into dark depths of anger and rage, killing every imperial he can find, until he can get back at the people who killed his family, at which point he is finally forced to realize that no amount of vengeance will bring his family back to him, and that every dead body he leaves behind in his quest for revenge is one further nail in the coffin of his humanity. Unfortunately the Jedi of our group has to be the one to force him to realize this, and i'm not sure he has the ability to convince my character of the things he needs to be convinced of. If he can't then it will come to blows, and my character will die.

My chief concern with the dark side point is that it might interfere with the story-arc for said character and bring things to a head before the appropriate time has come.

Me, I grasp the fact that StarWars is black and white, and that so far as the game goes the actions of the character justify a dark side point. As a human being though, nothing anyone can say will ever convince me that what the character did is worse than what the ISB agent did. It works in numbers. The character killed a treasonous, traitorous, back-stabbing, mass murderer. A man who killed hundreds, if not thousands of people. My character killed one person. Albeit in a harsh way, but no harsher than how any country executes it's prisoners. He told the person his crimes, how he failed, and then offed him. Hell that is more humane than how some countries kill their criminals However that is my own view on things, and everyone else has their own opinion, who am I tell anyone how things are or aren't?

As a guy with an entire shelf of books on moral and ethical philosophies, I am a firm believer in that in every man's eyes his own actions are justified and that sometimes (and only sometimes) you have to do bad things in order to achieve good ends. The deciding factors are how bad the action and how good the end. In the end though, isn't that why we play these types of games, to escape the world of gray morality, into a world where good/evil and right/wrong are easily definable and we need not concern ourselves with these lofty questions?
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[Ankhanu]

[Doomhead]

Its my understanding that the "Only way", according to the rule book, to receive a dark side point is when you spend a force point while doing evil. I check the 1st edition rule book, 2nd edition rule book and the 2nd edition expanded, they all said pretty much the same thing. (Does this mean that non-force users have a harder time getting force points) Does anybody else interpret the rules differently?

Sources:

1st Edition Rule Book pg 67 - "Rules: Dark Side Points"
"Whenever a character uses the force in an immoral way, he gains a dark side point."

2nd Edition Rule book pg 55 - "Getting Force Points BacK"
"How force points are used during an adventure determines whether or not the character gets the force point back at the end of the adventure."

- "Doing Evil"
"When a character commits evil while spending a force point , the character doesn't receive the force point back at the end of the adventure. In addition, he receives a dark side point.
Examples of committing evil include:
1. Killing a helpless innocent
2. Causing unnecessary, gratuitous injury
3. Killing except in self-defense or the defense of others
4. Using the force angry or filled with hate

2nd edition-Revised and Expanded : Stats the same thing as the 2nd edition

So under my interpretation of the rules the character WOULD NOT get a dark side point!
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http://www.box.net/shared/cn6f7sdkog

[Grimace]

Star Wars Rules Companion, Page 53:

"Can characters receive Dark Side Points for performing evil actions when they are not using the Force? Yes. The player characters represent the Rebel Alliance in their struggle against the Empire. The Empire is more than a military machine -- it is the embodiement of an evil philosophy. Acting in an evil way champions the cause of The Emperor, even if it does not directly aid him. Such a character will eventually succumb to the Dark Side."

I know I read it somewhere else, as well, but I can't find it at this time.

[Ankhanu]

Most of the content on DSPs does not state Force Sensitive nor non-Force Sensitive special cases, which leads me to believe that they are general for both. For example, check the Player Handout at the beginning of R&E (the same basic thing is in the first chapter of 2nd Ed.)

[Ankhanu]

[Savaad]

I love the response on this issue, however, I think everyone may be breaking it down much for me. I would not give DSPs unless it is a "evil" act that suits the need. The characters have done several shady things before and didn't warn of a DSP(thus didn't give one). I'm not saying every evil action deserves a DSP, because they don't.

This particular scenario is a man acting out of hate even though he is bring down the Tyrannical gov't. He may as well be the judge, jury, and executioner in this event, but still killed partially in hate and murder.

Originally I just kinda of wanted people to tell me if they thought Straker, said PC, murdered the ISB guy or if they felt it was justified and no different then shooting him. If anyone feels it was flat out murder, then he gets it. I do love the response though. It is very interesting to see everyone take on the scenario.

I do feel that the DSP system is not a good one. In the D20 system DSPs aren't as momumental as they are in D6. Look at the Kotor games, alot of people went around partially choosing the dark side or they were neutral. I think I am going to use the system from the Tales of the Jedi book. In that you don't go to the dark side until 6 DSPs or more(or it could be just more, can't remember).

The purpose of this guy getting a DSP is to simulate that is he is "going to far". He has done things similar to this before and I didn't even think about giving him a DSP because they are very hard to get as a NFS. He wasted a bouny hunter after he was interrogated and it was different in that instance. This guy is fueled PARTIALLY by hate when acting against the Empire. It is a negative trait he chose, thus I have to make it tangable in the game.
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[Grimace]