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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
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 Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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LOL
Not Disney movies...episodes of Disney SHOWS.
That's So Raven.
Hannah Montana.
And let's not forget the Teletubbies and Boo Bahs...  |
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Ankhanu
Vice Admiral
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 3089
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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Using Luke as a gauge for all things light side is a little bit... suspect as well. Yes, he's (currently) well entrenched in the light side, but his history is riddled with giving in and falling to the dark side. "Emerald lightning" or "Electric Judgement" are powers that skirt the Dark Side; kind of like Mace Windu's lightsaber Form. It requires a certain degree of familiarity and control over the Dark Side to tap into and the Jedi walks a molecule thin line between falling and staying on the light.
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Sith'Ari Lizanthrin
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 101
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | If Electric judgement was a lightside power that worked exactly the same as force lightening but only caused stun damage then I'd be fine with it not causing a DSP however I'm all for force powers that cause direct damage to also cause a DSP.
Not just because that's how the rules work but because the Jedi are taught that those powers draw on the dark side and they believe that using them is an evil act. |
And that's where I am going with it. I am trying to figure out a way to write it as Stun preferred, but application of stun dmg being dependent on your control roll. So, not enough control, you kill someone, gain your dsp, got it under control, sap their strength disabling them.
And Revenant, we are all friends here, the "FFS Don't <insert anything here>", should not cross one GMs mouth to another imho. If I choose to write up EJ and not apply DSPs in my games based on my understanding of a non canonical EU books description, so be it. I tend to agree with you all and was not trying to convince anyone of its lightside potential. As Director that's my call for my games. I was tossing food for thought on the proverbial fire. Nothing more nothing less.
Though I lean towards the idea that some traditions may be able to pull off more based on THEIR belief of what is evil and what is not.
The main focus of one of the games I play in, is Balance. We removed the Unified Force thought school Potentium from SW EU and our characters, our tradition, we the players, are the people Luke's Praxeum has had to interact with, the ones who he once "tried" our way and did not like it.
But finding a balance is the campaign's focus, not losing ourselves to that which we skirt.
I tend to view the context the action was used in. As given in my examples. In the ONE where I would not have awarded a DSP the PC would have made their control roll and not have "fried" their enemy.
As a student of Eastern Philosophy (I take Chinese Philo lessons with my Ba Gua Zhang Master) my views have changed on the questions of Light and Dark over time. But again, only for my games. I gladly bow to the Director's will in others. I was once awarded and accepted a DSP for using TK to drop a DROID PC on his head for shocking me with his damn stun baton. Reason given for DSP, "he may have been a droid but he was a player character whom you used the force directly to assault" When it was clearly stated I did not intend to nor did I "slam" him. He suffered 0 dmg, yet I was nailed with a DSP. I accepted and we moved on, I was not directing.
Alexis
*smiles* |
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Revenant
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 73
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Sith'Ari Lizanthrin wrote: | | And that's where I am going with it. I am trying to figure out a way to write it as Stun preferred, but application of stun dmg being dependent on your control roll. So, not enough control, you kill someone, gain your dsp, got it under control, sap their strength disabling them. |
Control is your ability to manipulate the Force within you (healing, detoxing). Alter is the ability to manipulate the Force around you or to affect others (telekinesis, lightning, injuring or killing), even in a non threatening way.
Why not just make it stun damage with an 'inc', 'mortally wounded', or dead result equaling a paralysis.
| Quote: | | And Revenant, we are all friends here, the "FFS Don't <insert anything here>", should not cross one GMs mouth to another imho. If I choose to write up EJ and not apply DSPs in my games based on my understanding of a non canonical EU books description, so be it. I tend to agree with you all and was not trying to convince anyone of its lightside potential. As Director that's my call for my games. I was tossing food for thought on the proverbial fire. Nothing more nothing less. |
It wasn't directed at you, it was directed to anyone making a correlation between using a dark side power and weaseling out of gaining a DSP for it.
And you are right, what you do in your games is completely fine. I've never told another GM 'Don't do that...' but I have told them 'Don't be an idiot...' (not that I'm saying you are in this case). If you want to create a Force Power for your game go for it, I wasn't even really commenting on the credibility of that power, only the Darkside powers being used 'for the light'. I'm not about to sugar coat my opinions however; it's just how I am. I won't bring up a gripe with out suggesting a logical solution.
| Quote: | | Though I lean towards the idea that some traditions may be able to pull off more based on THEIR belief of what is evil and what is not. |
The Force in SW and the way it's portrayed in the movies and books reminds me a lot of religion in our world: Everyone thinks their way is the best.
Not to degrade this into RL religious debate (that's not the point), but hear me out. The Jedi think they got it right, the Sith think they got it right, and in the middle of it all are the regular people going 'damn, what's wrong with you people'.
Most Sith are Fallen Jedis... most Fallen Jedis almost destroy the Galaxy... the Galactic Republic for some odd reason is okay with this and allows it to happen over, and over, and over, and over... and even let the Jedi police themselves. The entire think wreaks of stupidity.
It's also a little known fact that Jedi are tax exempt, but Sith have better medical and dental (and discounts on cybernetics).
The Force in, my games, is you. Simply put the Force gives you nothing that you were not already capable of doing. When you fall to the Darkside and the whispers haunt your sleep and tempt you to dark acts and torturous feats... that's just you killing yourself slowly.
There is no 'right way' because everyone has to choose their own path. The Problem is 6 DSPs till you fall is crap. So a Jedi gets pissed 6 times and is now an agent of ruthless evil? Well give my nipples a twist that makes zero flippin sense to me.
| Quote: | | I tend to view the context the action was used in. |
The best way to do it. I don't care if the act succeeds or fails, only the intent behind that action. Like your droid example, technically droids are okay to blast with the force since killing them is accepted in the rules. But the intent behind the action... the character using an action that was far brutal than the situation demanded... would call for consideration into a DSP.
Nice example.
[quote]As a student of Eastern Philosophy my views have changed on the questions of Light and Dark over time.[/i]
I try hard not to mingle any RL philosophies into my games. IT's difficult, but it prevents confusion.
And yes... Hannah Montana (Mylie Cyrus) is torture. I hate that annoying little scamp.
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"Told you, we did. Warned you, we tried. Now screwed, we all are... way to go Kenobi." - Jedi Master Yoda
"The boy is plain dagnasty evil!" - Obi-Wan Kenobi |
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Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6207
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Sith'Ari Lizanthrin wrote: | | Esoomian wrote: | If Electric judgement was a lightside power that worked exactly the same as force lightening but only caused stun damage then I'd be fine with it not causing a DSP however I'm all for force powers that cause direct damage to also cause a DSP.
Not just because that's how the rules work but because the Jedi are taught that those powers draw on the dark side and they believe that using them is an evil act. |
And that's where I am going with it. I am trying to figure out a way to write it as Stun preferred, but application of stun dmg being dependent on your control roll. So, not enough control, you kill someone, gain your dsp, got it under control, sap their strength disabling them. |
Perhaps make the player make a seperate control roll first before they can use Electrical justice (difficulty depending on the characters emotional state) if they succeed they can use electrical justice and only do stun damage but if they fail then they have to use force lightning and get a DSP. Make sure they have to do both checks in the same round and get a MAP for it. This makes it harder to use than force lightning but in my mind that works because it should be harder to use the light side of the force for such things.
Players can always choose to fail the control roll automatically 
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Sith'Ari Lizanthrin
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 101
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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Control is your ability to manipulate the Force within you (healing, detoxing). Alter is the ability to manipulate the Force around you or to affect others (telekinesis, lightning, injuring or killing), even in a non threatening way.
Why not just make it stun damage with an 'inc', 'mortally wounded', or dead result equaling a paralysis.
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I planned to use Control, Sense and Alter for it, similar to Force Lightning I was just thinking along the lines of Gry's Force Leap stat out, applying different parts of the overall roll to different aspects of the ability. Were I to make it a stun only power...
Why not ignore the powers useage description altogether at that point, the word killed is used pretty much in common with it. At that point I would have radically changed the very idea of the power. Though not a bad idea (a stunning FL would fit and would be "skirting the darkside's temptation" not truly my style. I am compiling odd force powers shown in the EU and statting them, Fallansi traditions, even that odd pike wielder tradition that can cover their bodies in stone or metal or even heat during combat. I will find the link, its one of the traditions listed under Force on Wookiee. So in essence I am not "making up" force abilities but instead statting oddball EU ones with no stats.
| Quote: | | Though I lean towards the idea that some traditions may be able to pull off more based on THEIR belief of what is evil and what is not. |
| Quote: | The Force in SW and the way it's portrayed in the movies and books reminds me a lot of religion in our world: Everyone thinks their way is the best.
Not to degrade this into RL religious debate (that's not the point), but hear me out. The Jedi think they got it right, the Sith think they got it right, and in the middle of it all are the regular people going 'd*mn, what's wrong with you people'. |
Could not agree with you more on this one. It is one of the reasons I am enjoying "our" New Sith, because we have found a way we are convinced is superior to either the old ways of "our" kind or the Jedi's way. We have a nice little pride thing going on, and our own little school of thought, that hasn't always meshed well when we speak with Grandmaster Skywalker.
| Quote: |
There is no 'right way' because everyone has to choose their own path. The Problem is 6 DSPs till you fall is crap. So a Jedi gets pissed 6 times and is now an agent of ruthless evil? Well give my nipples a twist that makes zero flippin sense to me. |
Again could not agree with you more on this one, we are using 6 or your Control whichever is higher (yes it control of your own body, but also holds powers like calm, hibernation trance and emptiness) for Force Users and 10 for NFS. Of course if any NFS gets 10 pts (we use the atrocity scale bad thing as a base for NFS people) we would probably have put them down by that point. We have also considered moving the base to 10 or 12 and using the 2d method, would give some breathing room to Force Users, but, feels almost too loose so we are using 6/Control for now. Please note if consumed before your Control hits 7D its not like getting it to 7D will yoink you back, you ARE in control, of your fallen self. ^_~
| Quote: | | I tend to view the context the action was used in. |
| Quote: | The best way to do it. I don't care if the act succeeds or fails, only the intent behind that action. Like your droid example, technically droids are okay to blast with the force since killing them is accepted in the rules. But the intent behind the action... the character using an action that was far brutal than the situation demanded... would call for consideration into a DSP.
Nice example. |
As for my statement about Eastern religion and philosophy it basically was only relevant in my mind because of the Jedi orders base in Ji-Di Singoku (sp?) in Lucas' mind. He attached a western concept, absolute good and evil, to an eastern philosophy and thats where the confusion about it comes from. Eastern beliefs such as the Shaolin monks and others used as part of the Jedi basis do not have an absolute good and evil.
So I view it largely as you do, by intent. In the case of the droid. I said up front that I dropped him from 6" after flipping him upside down. He was in no danger of fall dmg, no danger of being hurt and my intent was to "tease" I was playing a 14 year old padawan female, having a tissy over the shock prod. Ever thought of how a young girl or boy not life long trained in Jedi ways might react to things? It's a blast. But I can accept it was over-use of the Force in a non necessary way that was reminiscent of an attack. I accepted a DSP I would not have awarded myself and moved on.
Sorry if I came off as defensive. I am new to the boards and I must say am not used to so civil a board. I am always expecting someone to make a personal attack as is so common in forums, even intellectuals' forums.
I can only express hearfelt thanks to you for having so civil of an argument. It is pleasant to have found a home where people can discourse without the need for true argument.
Alexis
*smiles*
PS- Forgive me with the mess of this post, first time trying to multiquote. |
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Sith'Ari Lizanthrin
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 101
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: |
Perhaps make the player make a seperate control roll first before they can use Electrical justice (difficulty depending on the characters emotional state) if they succeed they can use electrical justice and only do stun damage but if they fail then they have to use force lightning and get a DSP. Make sure they have to do both checks in the same round and get a MAP for it. This makes it harder to use than force lightning but in my mind that works because it should be harder to use the light side of the force for such things.
Players can always choose to fail the control roll automatically |
Esoomian I could kiss you, you muscle bound namesake of your entire race!
That fits my idea perfectly, it makes it harder, and makes force lightening all the more seductive.
I just have to work it as to not be too cumbersome. Cumbersome rules and abilities don't go well with D6.
Alexis
*loves this forum more and more by the minute* |
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Karae
Captain
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Posts: 654
Location: Sheffield, UK
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Sith'Ari Lizanthrin wrote: | I planned to use Control, Sense and Alter for it, similar to Force Lightning I was just thinking along the lines of Gry's Force Leap stat out, applying different parts of the overall roll to different aspects of the ability. Were I to make it a stun only power...
Why not ignore the powers useage description altogether at that point, the word killed is used pretty much in common with it. At that point I would have radically changed the very idea of the power. Though not a bad idea (a stunning FL would fit and would be "skirting the darkside's temptation" not truly my style. I am compiling odd force powers shown in the EU and statting them, Fallansi traditions, even that odd pike wielder tradition that can cover their bodies in stone or metal or even heat during combat. I will find the link, its one of the traditions listed under Force on Wookiee. So in essence I am not "making up" force abilities but instead statting oddball EU ones with no stats. |
Okay.. from what I remember about this power, it saps their strength and willpower..
So why not have set levels of success (Yes, I stole this idea from WotC's Saga Edition), applying -1D, -2D or -3D (for example), to skill and/or attribute use?
Should Strength and Dexterity, as well as perhaps Know or Perception, reach 0D, then they'd be paralysed. If it takes them into negative dice, then perhaps they should be considered Mortally Wounded, and have to make the stabilization rolls? |
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Sith'Ari Lizanthrin
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 101
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Karae wrote: |
Okay.. from what I remember about this power, it saps their strength and willpower..
So why not have set levels of success (Yes, I stole this idea from WotC's Saga Edition), applying -1D, -2D or -3D (for example), to skill and/or attribute use?
Should Strength and Dexterity, as well as perhaps Know or Perception, reach 0D, then they'd be paralysed. If it takes them into negative dice, then perhaps they should be considered Mortally Wounded, and have to make the stabilization rolls? |
Not a shabby idea Karae, let me think on it more before I take a stab at it. But please don't stop tossing ideas my way, only way it will become a decent ability is with more than one person's input. Thank you guys for the stimulation and help!
Alexis
*loves the Pit and its pet Rancor, Fluffy* |
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Revenant
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 73
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Sith'Ari Lizanthrin wrote: | | Sorry if I came off as defensive. I am new to the boards and I must say am not used to so civil a board. I am always expecting someone to make a personal attack as is so common in forums, even intellectuals' forums. |
People are mean on the internets? Say it isn't so!
Heh, null sweat, it's not like I warned you it was coming, but honestly you're right. We're all friends here, which is why I'm brutally honest about things because I'm a big boy and can take when it's dished back out at me. So seriously, anytime, just be honest, even if it comes out a bit nasty. I'll respect you more. I won't call you... but I'll respect you.
I rub everyone the wrong way at least once. That's why so many sororities have banned me nationwide.
_________________
"Told you, we did. Warned you, we tried. Now screwed, we all are... way to go Kenobi." - Jedi Master Yoda
"The boy is plain dagnasty evil!" - Obi-Wan Kenobi |
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Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6207
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Sith'Ari Lizanthrin wrote: | | Esoomian wrote: |
Perhaps make the player make a seperate control roll first before they can use Electrical justice (difficulty depending on the characters emotional state) if they succeed they can use electrical justice and only do stun damage but if they fail then they have to use force lightning and get a DSP. Make sure they have to do both checks in the same round and get a MAP for it. This makes it harder to use than force lightning but in my mind that works because it should be harder to use the light side of the force for such things.
Players can always choose to fail the control roll automatically |
Esoomian I could kiss you, you muscle bound namesake of your entire race!
That fits my idea perfectly, it makes it harder, and makes force lightening all the more seductive.
I just have to work it as to not be too cumbersome. Cumbersome rules and abilities don't go well with D6.
Alexis
*loves this forum more and more by the minute* |
My thinking muscle work good?
Why I laugh?
Yes the double rolling is a bit cumbersome I hadn't really come up with a way around that part... I suppose you could just up the difficulty of the base roll and apply a MAP for streamlining. If the roll is really low then they just fail, if it's nt a decent roll then they pull off focrce lightning and if it's a great roll then they get electrical justice.
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Don't waste money on expensive binoculars.
Simply stand closer to the object you wish to view. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14214
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | If Electric judgement was a lightside power that worked exactly the same as force lightening but only caused stun damage then I'd be fine with it not causing a DSP however I'm all for force powers that cause direct damage to also cause a DSP.
Not just because that's how the rules work but because the Jedi are taught that those powers draw on the dark side and they believe that using them is an evil act. |
Very true. I have had in the past many arguments with people about whether force powers used to just stun/ko opponents should still gain a DSP or whether they should be limited to those who just do physical damage, but to me any damage is DSP teritory..
| Quote: | I was once awarded and accepted a DSP for using TK to drop a DROID PC on his head for shocking me with his d*mn stun baton. Reason given for DSP, "he may have been a droid but he was a player character whom you used the force directly to assault" When it was clearly stated I did not intend to nor did I "slam" him. He suffered 0 dmg, yet I was nailed with a DSP. I accepted and we moved on, I was not directing.
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I would have given you one due to your action seeming to be based on revenge... he hit you with his da** stun baton you dropped him on his head..
| Quote: | | Why not just make it stun damage with an 'inc', 'mortally wounded', or dead result equaling a paralysis. |
Paralysis imo would be DSP worthy as you are making them suffer.
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Sith'Ari Lizanthrin
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 101
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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I would have given you one due to your action seeming to be based on revenge... he hit you with his da** stun baton you dropped him on his head.. |
Very true, never looked at in that light, believe it or not I was still hooked up on the droid and no dmg parts after all these years.
| Quote: | | Why not just make it stun damage with an 'inc', 'mortally wounded', or dead result equaling a paralysis. |
| Quote: | | Paralysis imo would be DSP worthy as you are making them suffer. |
Precisely why I am having difficulty statting the power. Also as I said making the damage flat out different than it was in the books (making it all stun with no potential to kill) makes it not the power I am trying to stat. I am trying to put stats to EU abilities unstatted previously.
I am still working on it, but needless to say EJ will have plenty of DSP potential when I am done with it and only those who like Luke "have meditated long and hard with the Light side of the force" will have the control and ability to avoid them, making it controversial since most people who attempt it WILL get a DSP.
Alexis
*smiles* |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14214
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:59 am Post subject: |
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How's about when they use the power, if they fail to hit a control total of say 25, their use of the power is tainted and gains them a DSP, but if they are over 25, they can use it for stun only without dsp worry.
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Liana
Cadet
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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Discussing the various degrees of suffering starts down a very slippery slope, indeed. If a character/NPC has a horrible, secret fear of mind-reading, for example, your Jedi using telepathy (of either variety) would certainly be considered "suffering" for the duration, while the swift, brutal death blow of a Sith might be considered merciful. After all, they only suffered a moment out of necessity. 
In our games, it's all about intent. If you use a power that could normally kill, or hit someone hard enough to obliterate them and, instead, voluntarily knock the power down to stun damage to incapacitate them instead of killing them outright, it's not DSP-worthy. You're preserving a life, rather than snuffing it. (The obvious exception, of course, is if you're only preserving that life so you can torture it into oblivion later.) |
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