Darkside temptation

[PsiberDragon]

I'm actually looking over the Wookiepedia article you referenced, and, to me, it seems there are several things that indicate it would still be a DSP worthy power.

1) "This power was both uncommon and controversial among the Jedi because of its similarity to the dark side technique and its association with anger and aggression." "But beware the dark side.Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side of the force are they." - Yoda

2) Both Anakin and Jacen Solo used it against their enemies - both in times of questionable morality. Both against Yuuzhan Vong. To kill.

3) "[Luke Skywalker's] powerful version sent green sparks coruscating over the body of a Slayer, instantly killing him and causing his body to convulse" - Not slowing him down, not rendering him unconscious, not "sapping (it's) strength and willpower" - killing. Outright. Yes, I understand Luke did it to save another, but he DID have a choice... he didn't HAVE to kill... (ok, so it was in the script... )

4) "It is said that Jacen used this power because of his familiarity with Force Shock" - which is another DS power. (KOTOR II) - can't really fight evil with evil and expect good to win.

However, I do agree that it is kind of confusing both with quote about Luke being able to use it after meditation on the light side, and with the note about Jacen using it to sap strenght and will... (Spoiler afterward: although, if you keep in mind, Jacen is NOW Darth Cadeus, so that kinda goes toward the whole DSP thing in my book ... )

As for your use of "righteous anger", yes, I understand it was your words, but I think it was appropriate, as well, to describe all the above situations.

Regarding EJ being distinguishable from FL... it seems that the only major distinction is that EJ is listed as being a different color, and while it MENTIONS that it saps strength and will, the examples they give do not bring that forth. Also, consider who said that in conjunction with the above spoiler.

Your examples are good, but still, I would've awarded a DSP in each of them. The reason for the dissention on the first example is because it is taking the easy way out. TK the gun barrel up (you'd be surprised at how little effort that takes), use the Jedi Mind Trick, Absorb/dissipate energy (I'd increase difficulty because it's defending another person, but I'd give it a chance)... and I'm sure a couple of other powers, not to mention using a force point to act first to jump in the way, distract the shooter, etc would all be viable options.

Again... just my 2 centicreds.
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[masque]

Personally, I think that if a Jedi can slice and dice someone with their lightsaber in combat without using a DSP, I don't see any reason why they can't use Force lightning the same way, whether one calls it Force Lightning or Electric Judgment. The idea that one must be channeling anger to use it, and hence automatically get a DSP, is simply asinine to me. If the Jedi used it in anger to murder someone, sure, DSP, but if a Jedi has a power, they should also have to capability to use it in a strategic manner, and let the intentions determine DSP worthiness.

I understand WHY WEG did it, so you wouldn't have every force user in the game learning it, frying every bad guy, and unbalancing the game, but it doesn't seem to fit right to me with the idea of what a Jedi is.
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Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.

[Ankhanu]

Don't forget that gaining DSPs now and again isn't exactly a death sentence. They're not necessarily permanent and as long as you don't have too many, not that dangerous; you just have to be careful.

Sometimes it's strategic to gain that DSP, but you should choose your moments well. THAT is why WEG put it in place. It doesn't make the powers useless for a Jedi, but it does make you balance your choices and consider what you're doing.
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[Samp]

I have a quick question. Would it make sense for a Sith that they may have killed to come back as a ghost (or just a voice) and tempt the players to do the dark side stuff.

What I want to avoid is just me the GM giving them ideas. I think it would be much more interesting for them to be tempted by some outside force (no pun intended).

Currently they have not been in many positions that would give them a DSP unless they did something totally off the wall, but comeing up on the new section I have planned I think it would be interesting for some moral dilemma with a "easy darkside way" and a "hard or expensive lightside way".

[masque]

[vong]

[garhkal]

[quote="PsiberDragon"]First off, for my 200th post:

Sith'Ari... welcome to the Pit.

[Ankhanu]

[masque]

[masque]

Just to elaborate, here is how I would break down it's uses:

No DSP:
quick, stunning blast
quick fatal blast, under combat conditions
frying electronics, or any other shot at non-living things

DSP:
prolonged torture (as Palpatine did to Luke in ROTJ)
cold blooded murder

This is by no means a complete list, a GM would have to use his own judgment in figuring out if a player has evil intentions while using this (or any other Force power, for that matter) but you get the idea. I think there can be legitimate uses for it that don't involve a DSP.
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Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.

[Matthias777]

[Sith'Ari Lizanthrin]

The debate has been encouraging, and at least I see I am not alone when I say I, personally, feel as though the DSP rules are a bit too noose tight for my games. People still fall, the allure of the dark sider is still ever present. But I base alot of my decisions of DSP accrual on my feelings about the situation and how the player handled it. Occasionally I have a single player that likes to change the degree of intent once they are awarded the DSP. "Did I say fry his @$$? What I meant was use the force gingerly til he is knocked unconscious." In those cases this one player can become argumentative but that usually does not last long. As he is inevitably shot down on his bs by the party.



I will keep every abreast of my EU Force abilities sourcebook as more details unfold. In the last months I "think" I have covered every force user and oddball tradition's entry, but I have to spend a couple weeks double checking, then a couple weeks making certain other powers don't already fit the bill if used in odd ways, then start writing up rules for all the powers that need them, then playtest, bah you guys know the drill. Of course with Wookieepedia constantly in a state of fan updates, like the changes to Luke's entry someone did last night (assigning Force powers to some of his odd exhibitions of the force) things are ever changing to keep up with anyway.


Thank you all very much for the warm welcome. I spent entirely too much time lurking and wish I had taken part in the community sooner. Considering that I work from home (ebay for the start to a game shop) I find myself with alot of free time to browse these boards and work on my games.


Alexis Dority
*smiles*

[Revenant]

I think people are forgetting that some Force Traditions, like the Jannsaries, encourage the understanding of both the Light and the Dark. The Jedi believe the Lightside is stronger, the Sith believe the Darkside is more powerful, yet there are are traditions that honor the balance in the two together.

As far as when to give or not to give a Darkside Point with the force that's easy. When it comes to Force Power you award a Darkside Point whenever the power states "using this gives you a darkside point". As far as whether or not the character draws on fear, anger, or aggression when calling on the Force that's a tough one, since some players will try to weasel their way out of it at times. To these players I say: destroy them, give them (or not) DSPs based on RP. If they fail to RP their character at all as a safety net for not accruing DSPs, strip them of FPs or lock them in a closet for hours with Hannah Montana reruns.

Simply put the Dark Side is easy to gauge. It's the means, not the ends. that matter.

Force Lightning: To learn this or use this power the character must release, give in, or sign a check over to their anger and aggression. Whether use it on a driod, to kill a man, or power your Speak n' Spell. You give in to those emotions, the power seduces you, you get a DSP. That's it, it's that simple.

Now, what about "I use Force Push to knock the guards down.". Well, this is lame because the Jedi use Force Puch like it's going out of style, and if given the chance to calculate how may DSPs that'd gain for all the living people they'd tossed about then the Sith would have a good sized Jedi army.

The solution? Common sense. I permit the Jedi in my game to push people all the time and not gain DSPs, why? She forgoes applying damage and just uses as a defense to keep opponents off of her in combat, knocking them over instead of harming them. Is this a proper application? Well, yes, it is. Why do I believe so? Simple because Obi-Wan would have had a few DSPs by the end of Episode 3.

He tossed Grievous, who is a Cyborg but sill a living creature under the definition of the Force, he slammed into a wall (1 DSP), and that's just starters.

The point is your the GM, use your head and make the call but FFS don't justify a Darkside Power into a Light side power.
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"Told you, we did. Warned you, we tried. Now screwed, we all are... way to go Kenobi." - Jedi Master Yoda

"The boy is plain dagnasty evil!" - Obi-Wan Kenobi

[Esoomian]

If Electric judgement was a lightside power that worked exactly the same as force lightening but only caused stun damage then I'd be fine with it not causing a DSP however I'm all for force powers that cause direct damage to also cause a DSP.

Not just because that's how the rules work but because the Jedi are taught that those powers draw on the dark side and they believe that using them is an evil act.
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[Karae]