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Grimace
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Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
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 Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Gry Sarth wrote: |
I don't think that can be inferred from the article. It can be inferred from the question, but the official answer doesn't support that view in any way. Everything points to claw attacks being made with Brawling. |
Let me put in the whole, unparaphased Q&A, perhaps I'm misinterpreting or the lack of all words is misleading.
"Q: If a character has claws, could they roll their melee parry skill instead of brawling parry when fighting unarmed?
A: No. In this case, since the claws themselves are probably not used to block the attack (instead a hand or arm is used to parry) brawling parry is the more appropriate skill. Claws are not defensive weapons; they are "designed" for slashing and cutting attacks."
Now what I get from that is, if the claws WERE used, the skill rolled would be Melee Parry. Since the hand or arm is used instead, it's Brawling Parry. It further states that claws are not defensive weapons, and are designed for slashing and cutting attacks. This, to me, infers that claws would therefore be considered Melee attacks, since if you could effectively block with them, it would be Melee Parry.
Now, this is all inference, of course, but the official answer is that claws cannot be used to parry, so therefore any parrying done by a clawed creature would roll Brawling Parry instead. It does not specifically state that an attack by a clawed creature is Melee attack, but it does specifically state that if the claws themselves were used to parry, it would be Melee Parry. So I guess it's up to each person to draw their own inference. |
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Ankhanu
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Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 3089
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:21 am Post subject: |
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I get from that that claws are insufficient to qualify as weapons for blocking... and Brawling Parry is used and not Melee Parry. I also don't think it quite infers that using claws would qualify for Melee Combat rolls. They would, however, qualify to add modifiers for unarmed combatants Brawling Parry-ing the attack.
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Revenant
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Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 73
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| slaughterj wrote: | | Not particularly. The bulk of combat ends up being ranged (and lightsabers), and therefore it is only logical for the propensity of defensive points to get spent on Dodge rather than both Melee Parry and Brawling Parry. |
I keep seeing this, and at the sake of sounding crass: what sort of a boring game consists of blasters and lightsabers as 'the majority'.
Those games would get incredibly boring at an astounding rate. Not much heroism in swinging a glow stick and shooting your gun everywhere.
For those who don't want to waste time on the 'parry' skills I'd just wipe the floor with em when they go up against a frothing wookie. Especially considering that 'parry' skills essentially include dodges as well. A particularly malicious GM could prevent a player from using their Dodge skill to avoid melee and brawling attacks, since technically it's covered by their parry skills.
| Quote: | | Further, even a character with 6D of some Parry is still going to get wasted by the Krayt Dragon with 12D of STR. |
Most characters with 6D in anything should have enough common sense to not go up against a Krayt Dragon unless they have a few Thermal Ds anyway.
Or are crazy enough to get swallowed on purpose and cut their way out with a lightsaber or vibroblade.
And if your GM doesn't allow option number two, then they need to be more creative. If my players think on their feet and come up with a great plan and roleplay it out I don't care if it has 12D or 50D... that thing might just be in trouble.
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slaughterj
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Joined: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 79
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Revenant wrote: | | slaughterj wrote: | | Not particularly. The bulk of combat ends up being ranged (and lightsabers), and therefore it is only logical for the propensity of defensive points to get spent on Dodge rather than both Melee Parry and Brawling Parry. |
I keep seeing this, and at the sake of sounding crass: what sort of a boring game consists of blasters and lightsabers as 'the majority'.
Those games would get incredibly boring at an astounding rate. Not much heroism in swinging a glow stick and shooting your gun everywhere.
For those who don't want to waste time on the 'parry' skills I'd just wipe the floor with em when they go up against a frothing wookie. Especially considering that 'parry' skills essentially include dodges as well. A particularly malicious GM could prevent a player from using their Dodge skill to avoid melee and brawling attacks, since technically it's covered by their parry skills. |
Even with frothing wookies, I seriously doubt your typical SW game varies from what I stated.
Further, most PCs recognize that a Wookie can have 7D of Brawling at the start, and to have a chance against them would require way too many points invested just to have a chance in that limited situation, since most people are starting around 3D in their Brawling Parry. PCs intelligently spend many of their points where they will get the most use out of them - Blaster, Dodge, Starship Piloting, Medicine, etc. - and not many points in skills that don't get as much use.
| Revenant wrote: | | slaughterj wrote: | | Further, even a character with 6D of some Parry is still going to get wasted by the Krayt Dragon with 12D of STR. |
Most characters with 6D in anything should have enough common sense to not go up against a Krayt Dragon unless they have a few Thermal Ds anyway.
Or are crazy enough to get swallowed on purpose and cut their way out with a lightsaber or vibroblade.
And if your GM doesn't allow option number two, then they need to be more creative. If my players think on their feet and come up with a great plan and roleplay it out I don't care if it has 12D or 50D... that thing might just be in trouble. |
I'm simply going by the encounter provided in the module Tatooine Manhunt, which forces combat between the PCs and a Krayt Dragon. It's a relatively extreme situation, but it is nonetheless one which can arise.
Further, you raise the concern about the frothing Wookie as a reason to buy up Parry, but then are somewhat contradicting yourself here about avoiding this creature which also requires a high Parry to stand up to. So which way is it - avoid the creatures (including frothing Wookies) with high STR and Brawling and deal with them creatively, or bluntly buy up your Parry to take them on straight-up? |
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Xynar
Commander
Joined: 10 Aug 2003
Posts: 282
Location: Northwest Indiana
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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I house rule it by moving the Brawling skill to Dexterity and (most of the time) reduce the creature's fighting ability. Sometimes I think a creature should have a higher brawling and adjust it as well. Just because you're strong, doesn't mean you can fight (but it helps with dealing damage  ).
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Revenant
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Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 73
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| slaughterj wrote: | Even with frothing wookies, I seriously doubt your typical SW game varies from what I stated.
Further, most PCs recognize that a Wookie can have 7D of Brawling at the start, and to have a chance against them would require way too many points invested just to have a chance in that limited situation, since most people are starting around 3D in their Brawling Parry. PCs intelligently spend many of their points where they will get the most use out of them - Blaster, Dodge, Starship Piloting, Medicine, etc. - and not many points in skills that don't get as much use. |
You are quite right. And when those players get stuck in a situation where a skill they don't use as often still hasn't been trained, they get a beat down.
Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
| slaughterj wrote: | | Further, you raise the concern about the frothing Wookie as a reason to buy up Parry, but then are somewhat contradicting yourself here about avoiding this creature which also requires a high Parry to stand up to. |
"Brawling parry is used to hold one's ground yet avoid or block a hand to hand combat attack."
For those unfamiliar with the definition of avoid...
Avoid: To stay clear from; keep away from; keep out of the way of someone or something.
Now if you find yourself toe to toe with a frothing Wookie and running isn't an option... it's best to avoid getting hit. This is what the Brawling Parry skill lets you do, or Melee Parry since you get a +10 bonus to your roll unless it's natural weaponry. If you as Joe PC failed to purchase it, or work on improving either of those then you are most likely going to get hurt. It happens, hope you have some med packs.
It’s not the GMs or the Game’s fault you didn’t buy up those skills. If you live I hope you learn a lesson, if not, maybe the next PC will work out differently for you.
| Quote: | | So which way is it - avoid the creatures (including frothing Wookies) with high STR and Brawling and deal with them creatively, or bluntly buy up your Parry to take them on straight-up? |
Both, buying up one will permit you to do the other. As far as creativity, that's a case-by-case basis.
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"The boy is plain dagnasty evil!" - Obi-Wan Kenobi |
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slaughterj
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Joined: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 79
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Revenant wrote: | | slaughterj wrote: | Even with frothing wookies, I seriously doubt your typical SW game varies from what I stated.
Further, most PCs recognize that a Wookie can have 7D of Brawling at the start, and to have a chance against them would require way too many points invested just to have a chance in that limited situation, since most people are starting around 3D in their Brawling Parry. PCs intelligently spend many of their points where they will get the most use out of them - Blaster, Dodge, Starship Piloting, Medicine, etc. - and not many points in skills that don't get as much use. |
You are quite right. And when those players get stuck in a situation where a skill they don't use as often still hasn't been trained, they get a beat down.
Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
| slaughterj wrote: | | Further, you raise the concern about the frothing Wookie as a reason to buy up Parry, but then are somewhat contradicting yourself here about avoiding this creature which also requires a high Parry to stand up to. |
"Brawling parry is used to hold one's ground yet avoid or block a hand to hand combat attack."
For those unfamiliar with the definition of avoid...
Avoid: To stay clear from; keep away from; keep out of the way of someone or something.
Now if you find yourself toe to toe with a frothing Wookie and running isn't an option... it's best to avoid getting hit. This is what the Brawling Parry skill lets you do, or Melee Parry since you get a +10 bonus to your roll unless it's natural weaponry. If you as Joe PC failed to purchase it, or work on improving either of those then you are most likely going to get hurt. It happens, hope you have some med packs.
It’s not the GMs or the Game’s fault you didn’t buy up those skills. If you live I hope you learn a lesson, if not, maybe the next PC will work out differently for you.
| Quote: | | So which way is it - avoid the creatures (including frothing Wookies) with high STR and Brawling and deal with them creatively, or bluntly buy up your Parry to take them on straight-up? |
Both, buying up one will permit you to do the other. As far as creativity, that's a case-by-case basis. |
Apparently you missed my point. You said to run from the big creatures, one doesn't stand toe to toe with them, because they do too much damage and hit too easily (e.g., Krayt Dragon, 12D STR and no PC in a reasonable campaign is going to have a chance to buy up a competitive Parry). But you said to stand up to the frothing Wookie. However, the frothing Wookie often does too much damage as well and hits as well (e.g., frothing Wookie, 5D STR + 2D Brawling at least; and it is pretty hard for the 3D base PC to buy up a competitive Parry here either). So really, you are being contradictory. |
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Revenant
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Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 73
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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And you're missing my point. However it's a far better idea to coddle the players along and make sure that every encounter is custom tailored to the skills they do possess rather then stick them in hot water needing skills they do not.
If I followed your logic I'd have to completely remove Wookies from my game until the PCs became less than typical just because they might pick a fight at the wrong time and it'll wipe the floor with them.
But that's okay. You win, I'm not about to continue to go back and forth about this.
Do your PCs ever get into an old fashioned fist fight with anybody? Mine do, guess my games aren't typical.
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"The boy is plain dagnasty evil!" - Obi-Wan Kenobi |
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masque
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Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 626
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Revenant wrote: | | Do your PCs ever get into an old fashioned fist fight with anybody? |
Fist fight? Nah. That's what blasters and thermal detonators are for, avoiding fist fights. I can think of maybe one or two physical brawls in bars from our games, but that's when the vibroknives or a handy pool cue are used. Fist fights, as I know from real world experience, aren't much good at anything but bruising one's fists.
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