Animals / Creatures / Beasts - Attacks

[slaughterj]

So, what attribute/skill do animals, etc. use to make attacks with their natural weapons? Is it DEX, STR, or what?

DEX is the base for Melee, not Brawl (which is based on STR), and most games consider natural weapons to be an extension of brawling rather than melee. But if it is STR, then the desert dragons, etc. with high STR will virtually always autohit when they attack (since characters usually only have some boosted Dodge, and not much boosted Brawling Parry) and do massive damage when they hit - which makes such threats too strong it would seem.

[Gry Sarth]

Indeed, you are correct in your assesment. Creatures make attacks with their Brawling skill (or Strength if they are unskilled), and that presents a big design flaw with big creatures.

One option WEG had at its disposal to circumvent this is to use Scales. But, alas, it very rarely used different scales to stat creatures. When writing the Creatures Stats book I had to convert a bunch of d20 creatures form the Ultimate Adversaries book, and that particular issue was a constant nuisance. When coming up with stats for big monsters I usued two methods to balance this uncalled-for ability to deal out unescapable attacks. First was using scales, so that the creature would suffer a penalty when attacking and would be an easier target, though tougher. Second was keeping the Strength attribute down by adding Special Abilities such as Tough Hide or Armored Skin, so the beast is still durable but not so good at attacking.

But that doesn't solve our problem. The rancor still attacks with 7D and the Marsh Wyrm with 9D, and you're left with almost no chance of evading its attacks (much less surviving the resulting damage). So you just have to fudge things a little. Cut back on some of those dice, or perhaps make a ruling that using natural weapons is actually a Melee Combat action....
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"He's Gry Sarth, of course he has the stats for them."

[Ankhanu]

Speaking of scales, there is a Creature Scale listed in several official books... but I've never found a table or what have you for how to address that scale versus any other. Has anyone seen how Creature scale relates to, for example, Character scale?

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[Gry Sarth]

Yeah, I think I remember a few official creatures who actually had Brawling skills lower than their Strength attribute!

And regarding Creature scale, I think it's just a different way to phrase Character scale....
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"He's Gry Sarth, of course he has the stats for them."

[Ankhanu]

Ok, that's what I was thinking... and how I've approached it in-game.
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[suud43]

[Gry Sarth]

I understand the logic of it, but the thing that's missing in the system is the fact that "Yeah, sure, it's big as a house, and if it hits you you'll be torn in two, but it's big and slow, so if you keep an eye on those claws, you might be able to run right pass them and strike it where it hurts." Or something like that...

There's a reason why bullfighters can dodge a bull. Usually big things have inertia to contend with...
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"He's Gry Sarth, of course he has the stats for them."

[suud43]

You're right there...so just use the same procedure as everytime something like this comes up: house rule. Use scales for small, medium, big and gargantuan creatures. I think the D20 stuff already uses scales like that. As for tables, just use the same as for ships or atmospheric vehicles.
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"Learning by pain, motivation by horror."

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[garhkal]

[Grimace]

I dug out my Adventure Journals to look at the assorted ISB Intercepts (where WEG answered some of the more esoteric questions about the game mechancis) and in Issue 9 they have the creatures, and Issue 15 they talk about Melee and Brawling.

First, Issue 9 (parts paraphrased):
"Creatures use their Dexterity (or Brawling Parry skill if they have it) to resist attacks. They use their Strength (or Brawling skill if they have it) to make attacks."

"All creatures are considered "Creature" scale (which is equivalent to Character scale)."


From Issue 15 (parts paraphased):
Q: If character has claws, could they roll their Melee Parry instead of Brawling Parry when fighting unarmed?

A: "No, claws are not used to block an attack, so Brawling Parry is the more appropriate skill. Claws are not defensive weapons, they are for slashing and cutting attacks"


So, with all of that information, you could infer the following:

Yes, really strong creatures are also VERY good at hitting things.

A creature with claws is effectively using Melee Attack.

A creature with claws has to use Brawling Parry, or DEX to avoid attacks.

All creatures are the same scale as Characters.




Now, as mentioned, this makes some creatures that are super beefy also super deadly, as they can hit you just as well as they can damage you. Ouch!
While this is certainly nasty, at the same time it makes creatures a fair and reasonable threat to PCs who don't happen to have a speeder scale weapon handy and aren't hunkered in something sturdy. It would make sense why the Tusken Raiders ran away when the Krayt Dragon howl came from Obi Wan. Three or four Sand People, even with weapons, are going to be VERY hard pressed to take on something like that.
At the same time, it makes the Rancor in ROTJ is a little slow and clumsy. This could be attributed, as the novel states, by the Rancor being penned up in such a small area and basically being spoon fed. Against a wild, Dathomir Rancor, it would be a much, much more dangerous battle for Luke. In fact, he probably would have become a scoobey snack for a Dathomir Rancor.

Yes, one could say the creatures are "broken". Heck, I thought so, that's part of the reason why I came up with more scales and creatures such as the Rancor and Krayt Dragon go up in scale and drop down in Strength to reflect the increase.

Officially, though, creatures can be some real bad mamma-jamma's!

[Ankhanu]

[Gry Sarth]

[slaughterj]

[slaughterj]

[slaughterj]