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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14132
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Golbez wrote: | With Darth Maul, I think it was just an opening he saw and took it. The fact that Qui-Gon did not die is part of the attack.
You disable an opponent, and prove that you are stronger then them before you kill them, so that they know they have been conquered.
This would produce hate and/or fear, which the sith would feed off of.
I am surprised that we haven't seen more battles that maim, humiliate, and torture rather then kill. It would be a very sith like thing to do I think. Play with your prey before you end their misery. |
While i can see some sith being that way, not all imo would go in for the 'humiliate before killing' way of doing things..
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Ankhanu
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Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 3089
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Golbez wrote: | I point I concidered before posting, but I still disagree. You read Path of Distruction: Darth Bane, right?
*SPOILER, SCROLL OVER TO READ*
In the challenges Bane made against the Zabrak, both victors humiliated their opponents for prestige and did not take the quick route.
*END SPOILER*
From that, I gather that when total victory is assured, dominating ones opponent was the way to prove your power. I could be wrong though. |
Finish reading the book 
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ifurin
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| i don't personally know much about sword combat but i have a friend who does. (he studies it as part of his job) and according to him, using fencing as a base, a thrust with a sword is much more controllable than a swing. and a trained swordsman can come back from a thrust much faster than from a swing. a thrust also takes less strength compared to the parry required to divert it exhausting the enemy faster than the attacker. |
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Reyus Graven
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Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 41
Location: Anacortes, Wa
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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that makes me wonder then. Having hit Qui-gon in the stomach wouldn't had just been easier to I don't know slide the light saber out of side of him cutting him partially in half. (assuming that the rating of the movie prevented a gory violent death as being cut partially in half. When darth maul was cut it wasn't very gory and mostly implied how bad he was hit.) He pulled it out straight for some reason and he was staring at obi-wan the entire time he did it. So I think he did it partially to cause fear and anger in the padawan. I do agree that thrusting is prob just different styles of fighting.
As far as inferring much of a hypothetical weapon we can tell this much. It is a sword of some type of energy that cuts through things because it melts through things with extreme heat. So damage a saber could cause would be immense but it would also seal the injury. However if you put a light saber through an organ you very much could melt the organ. Plus shock would be a huge factor. That much damage in your system would prob make you die from shock.
Yeah chopping them in half would do quite a bit more damage but a thrust is still going to do quite a bit in the nature of sabers. Course in saber fights you take whatever you can get. Once you hit them pain and whatnot would leave them open enough to finish off in whatever way you wanted.
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Revenant
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Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 73
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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Keep in mind depth perception. The eye, especially when dealing with a large three dimensional colored light, would have a difficult time establishing the blades location and distance from him/her.
Stabbing at a target would be very confusing since the saber is light and retinal disparity (or stereopsis) would result in a lack of depth perception.
Basically in a nutshell, it could easily cause the opponent to lose balance or have difficulty parrying, like the case of Vader staggering slightly and using a rather wild swing to deflect the saber before Luke began swinging like a girl on him.
Just a thought. |
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TheDoctor
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 150
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | I'm going to vote for just cinematics. Contrary to your group's thought, tips are not more fatal. I do a fair amount of historical swordsmanship, and one of the biggest critiques of Georg Silver to the introduction of the rapier (an almost purely thrusting weapon) into the English swordplay was the fact that an opponent could be run through a number of times without dying. Indeed he said that there were numerous instances where people received what looked like fatal blows, but then not only killed there opponent, but also recovered some three months later. If you get someone directly in the aorta, brachial artery, or femeral artery, then it will be an instant kill. Other than that, historical accounts indicate that it may take a few pierces to do someone in.
The Maul pierce was most certainly for this exact reason. Qui-Gon had to live long enough to give his final word to Obi-Wan. |
I would tend to agree with this post.
Another point not brought up so far is that unlike swords, lightsabers being energy weapons would cauterize the wound instantaneously, so in a way, a piercing blow would be less lethal from a lightsaber than a steel sword.
I would say mainly that the swordplay in the movies is largely for theatrical effect and wouldn't necessarily conform to known practicality (much in the way in the films you can hear explosions in the vacuum of space). Thus discussion of styles is kind of a moot point.
I would point out that they are lightSABERs, and a saber is primarilly at slashing weapon to begin with. So in light of their less effective use in piercing, slashing attacks make the most sense though a piercing thrust is more controlable.
In conclusion, we have simply to enjoy the films (or not!) and keep them in the realm of noise in space and improbably evil characters.
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jmanski
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Joined: 06 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Well said. Movies are for entertainment. Realism in Sci-fi isn't any fun.
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Revenant
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Joined: 27 Dec 2007
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Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| TheDoctor wrote: | | I would point out that they are lightSABERs, and a saber is primarilly at slashing weapon to begin with. So in light of their less effective use in piercing, slashing attacks make the most sense though a piercing thrust is more controlable. |
I'd have to disagree with you on this part. Comparing a beam of energy to an archaic 19th century weapon simply because they share the same namesake is a bit ridiculous.
The light saber is either a slashing or piercing weapon. It depends on the particular style of the wielder. Since it is very light weight it is an ideal weapon for parries and blocks, however since there are very few things that a lightsaber can not cut through it is also ideal for stronger, more aggressive attacks.
Darth Vader provides an excellent example. He literally fences (a style popular with rapiers, sabers, and foils) Luke with his light saber in the carbon chamber in Episode 5. Watch how he fights, one hand, simple motions with little strength or effort. Some could argue it's because he's strong as all get out. In all honesty I think it's because he was a 'master' at dueling and was using every ounce of Luke’s strength against him.
Flip over to Windu the Jedi who is such a bad @$$ he can use a purple lightsaber and no one will tell him it clashes with his purse. His style was aggressive and no nonsense. Brutal slashes targeted for maximum damage. Not something the 19th century saber was designed for.
Darth Maul had stabbed with the saber once before also. He defeated a Jedi Master in this manner once already. For Maul it was 'what ever works'. If he could stab, slash, or throw, he would.
All in all, the weapon is made to be used however its owner needs it to be used. It has the grace and speed of a fencing foil and the striking power of a god knows what. Don't be too quick to say 'lightsabers were meant to be used this way because 'saber' is in the name'. It all depends on the owner’s style. |
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TheDoctor
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 150
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Revenant wrote: | | TheDoctor wrote: | | I would point out that they are lightSABERs, and a saber is primarilly at slashing weapon to begin with. So in light of their less effective use in piercing, slashing attacks make the most sense though a piercing thrust is more controlable. |
I'd have to disagree with you on this part. Comparing a beam of energy to an archaic 19th century weapon simply because they share the same namesake is a bit ridiculous.
The light saber is either a slashing or piercing weapon. It depends on the particular style of the wielder. Since it is very light weight it is an ideal weapon for parries and blocks, however since there are very few things that a lightsaber can not cut through it is also ideal for stronger, more aggressive attacks.
Darth Vader provides an excellent example. He literally fences (a style popular with rapiers, sabers, and foils) Luke with his light saber in the carbon chamber in Episode 5. Watch how he fights, one hand, simple motions with little strength or effort. Some could argue it's because he's strong as all get out. In all honesty I think it's because he was a 'master' at dueling and was using every ounce of Luke’s strength against him.
Flip over to Windu the Jedi who is such a bad @$$ he can use a purple lightsaber and no one will tell him it clashes with his purse. His style was aggressive and no nonsense. Brutal slashes targeted for maximum damage. Not something the 19th century saber was designed for.
Darth Maul had stabbed with the saber once before also. He defeated a Jedi Master in this manner once already. For Maul it was 'what ever works'. If he could stab, slash, or throw, he would.
All in all, the weapon is made to be used however its owner needs it to be used. It has the grace and speed of a fencing foil and the striking power of a god knows what. Don't be too quick to say 'lightsabers were meant to be used this way because 'saber' is in the name'. It all depends on the owner’s style. |
You are correct in that a lightsaber is simply incomparable to any terrestrial weapon, but if you want to incorporate hypothetical physics, slashing attacks would technically be the most effective with a lightsaber since lightsaber wounds would tend not to bleed. The shape and path of a slashing attack has a greater area than a piercing attack and therefore more likely to hit a vital organ or vessel. Otherwise, piercing attacks are only lethal if they cause bleeding.
On the other hand, you would still be correct that it depends on style since it is up to to the wielder's skill to make a critical hit with a thrust attack.
Clearly the choreography in the films may not have necessarilly been detailed oriented in terms of anatomy, but we can shrug and assume that Qui-Gon was killed because the wound from Maul struck a vital vessel. Had it struck his heart, he would not have been able to deliver his dying message.
Well then again, he hypothetically could have been using a Force Power to extend his life just long enough.
We could go on forever.
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Kytross
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Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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Qui Gon should have rolled his control pain and gotten back into the fight.
From what little I know about swordplay, the big advantage to the rapier was not a faster kill, but a greater defense. Your opponent had to get past your sword and then he was confronted with... your arm. Vital organs were another three feet away. Parrying is considerably easier with a rapier, which weighs a little bit more then a duck's quack, than with a solid steal broadsword.
And while you're keeping your opponent at arm's length you can poke him thirty or forty times while he's attempting to slash you. Again, like the fight in Rob Roy. |
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masque
Captain
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 626
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Kytross wrote: | | And while you're keeping your opponent at arm's length you can poke him thirty or forty times while he's attempting to slash you. Again, like the fight in Rob Roy. |
Yep. Until he gets in his slash and opens you up from shoulder to waist.
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Ankhanu
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Joined: 13 Oct 2006
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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I was just watching ANH last night, and noticed that during the Obi-Wan/Vader battle, Vader made use of numerous short thrusts in his style... they're subtle, but definitely there.
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l0mathon
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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In the third book of the Thrawn Trilogy, I am pretty sure Mara Jade thrusts/uses the tip of her lightsaber as a weapon. Can't remember if it is when she and Luke and training or during her fight with Luuke (clone of Luke). When asked about her technique, she says something about being taught to use all of her weapon or something along those lines.
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