Projected fighting

[Son of Fire]

My buddies and I where watching AOTC the other day to get in the mood to play a rousing game of SW (with yours truly GM’ing).
Everything was fine until the final until Genosis (sp?). All of us in unison said “sweet mother of crap! Those Jedi are using projected fighting on living beings!”
And lo and behold they where, Jedi where tossing those insect dudes left and right…not one got up later, so it seemed pretty obvious that the Jedi where not pulling their TK punches so to speak.

So what to do now? Does projected fighting still incur a DS pip?
I know what conclusion we came to, but I’m wondering what you all think?
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"My schooling not only failed to teach me what it professed to be teaching, but prevented me from being educated to an extent which infuriates me when I think of all I might have learned at home by myself." - George Bernard Shaw

[Ray]

Self Defence.

Honestly, there should be some kind of "Force Taser" or some such which could cause an opponent to fall back a bit, then go "Nappy-Nap" so that they wouldn't have to resort to their Lightsabres.

[Esoomian]

As Anikin was slicing them in twain with a lightsaber I'd have to say that those insect dudes were drones (like ants or bees) so perhaps in that case it's like using projected fighting on droids... Which often act like living beings too

[Son of Fire]

Yeah.
I tend to think that Jedi are kind of like paladins in D&D in a way.
Sure a paladin can hack through a ton of orks and not have to worry about his vows or the loss of his abilities. But if say an ork were captured, the paladin would not allow any harm to it. Its one thing to slay in combat for a greater good, its another thing to slay an already defeated opponent.

As for the drone thing…either way they are still killing something alive with the Force. Sure it’s not Force Lightning (something intrinsically evil) but those Jedi still used the Force in combat. Then again, Lightsabre combat could be construed as using the Force in combat aswell.
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"My schooling not only failed to teach me what it professed to be teaching, but prevented me from being educated to an extent which infuriates me when I think of all I might have learned at home by myself." - George Bernard Shaw

[Son of Fire]

Don’t get me wrong; I would not want to open the door to say… “all Force power can be used to kill and all force powers can be used by anyone as long as its for a greater good.” We all know that’s bunk. I would not want to see Light Side Jedi tossing Bolts of Hatred about or Force Lighting, but perhaps Projected Fighting is now one of those Force powers that would constitute a DS pip depending on its usage as opposed to something like Force Lighting, which is fundamentally evil.
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"My schooling not only failed to teach me what it professed to be teaching, but prevented me from being educated to an extent which infuriates me when I think of all I might have learned at home by myself." - George Bernard Shaw

[Scrawprin]

Projected fighting only has the potential to give the user a Dark Side point, NOT guarantee a Dark Side point.

Source: "Jedi Academy Sourcebook, The"

[Maximilian Bernas]

Well, it does seem to imply that The Force can be used in this manner. I mean, Episodes I and II are canon now, so we may have to adjust this in our own ways.

"A Jedi uses The Force for knowledge and defence, never for attack."

Hmmm, projected fighting is a pre-emptive strike against superior numbers?

I'm wracking my brain here; anyone else got any ideas?

Thanks Son of Fire! Now I'm going to be thinking about this all DAY!
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"Let your anger be like a monkey in a pinata"
- Master Tang

[Son of Fire]

Well, the way I would rationalize it, it would all depend on usage even if that usage would be to injure or kill (going from what I saw in AOTC mine you). So a Jedi with tons of obviously evil baddies around trying to kill him then it would be ok to toss them around. But if he where using the power to intimidate, or if its use could be avoided (through passive means) then DS pip’s would be given.

I wonder how many DS pips Luke got for Force choking those Gammorian (sp?) guards at Jabba’s palace in ROTJ?

Correct me if I’m wrong Scraw, but doesn’t it say that a Jedi will get DS pips if they use the power to do anything more than stun damage? If that’s the case, we still have the fact that the bug dudes (I can’t spell their darn names) did not get up at all after being hit by the TK slap. For all we know they where killed, and if that’s the case… well then perhaps Projected fighting, or how Jedi can use their powers is called into question.

“Thank you Lucas for contradicting what Yoda said in TESB and now giving us no framework in which to operate as well as messing with continuity yet again.
Sincerely: the Son of Fire.”
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"My schooling not only failed to teach me what it professed to be teaching, but prevented me from being educated to an extent which infuriates me when I think of all I might have learned at home by myself." - George Bernard Shaw

[Son of Fire]

I was thinking about this whole issue when I drew upon a conclusion.
The reason for such debate is the fact that WEG never laid down a system for handing out DS pips (at least there is none that I am aware of). They just gave a very rudimentary framework in which to operate, that in turn left much of it up to the individual GM for interpretation. Now this has its up side, which being that GM’s and player have a lot of leeway when doling out DS pips. But conversely, it has its drawbacks, that mainly being that there is no common ground for players to work with, no point of reference when dealing with other gamers, this gives basically every group it’s own set of “house rules”. Which lead to a debate about interpretation, and considering that there is no real official stance, no one can really win, be “right”, or progress the issue because it’s all purely speculative.

Look at ROTJ, how many DS pips did he get from choking the guards at Jabba’s palace? One, two, perhaps none? How many would he have received for “bagging womp-rats in beggars” canyon? Sure he was not a Jedi then, but he was Force sensitive, and killing (I assume because that is what was implied) vermin wantonly for fun could not really be the same thing as killing in order to protect a greater good, or for self-preservation. How may DS pips if any would a Jedi get for stealing? Or for that matter would a character that’s a smuggler get any for shipping contraband, Force sensitive or not?

Its questions like these that have no concrete answer that keep popping up, and will continue to because WEG never has a system for DS pip allotment.
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"My schooling not only failed to teach me what it professed to be teaching, but prevented me from being educated to an extent which infuriates me when I think of all I might have learned at home by myself." - George Bernard Shaw

[Crell Damar]

[Son of Fire]

True that could be possible, but I think it would make it much more convoluted.
Look at it this way…if he did the mind trick to be nice, and to follow the Jedi code to a tee, it was not hinted at in any way in the film. So to have that scenario, it would take a lot of twisting logic, and leaps of faith just to get to that conclusion. Most of the audience would not even get that (which would be bad in a pop culture film that should be easy to digest). Also it ignores the womp-rat issue.
Now if he Force choked the guards… then we just have to re-evaluate DS pips in the game (though its not like they gave us much to work with).

Personally I tend to go with the simplest answer…he choked them.

But perhaps the official novel can clear that up…anyone have an excerpt?
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"My schooling not only failed to teach me what it professed to be teaching, but prevented me from being educated to an extent which infuriates me when I think of all I might have learned at home by myself." - George Bernard Shaw

[Crell Damar]

No, it does hint at the fact that he uses the mind trick, because as you've seen, when Vader choked someone using the force, he concentrated and held his hand at them until they died. When Luke "choked" as you call it the guards, it was a simple wave of the hand at each. And do you notice how when he continued on, they were still grabbing their throats as if being choked. With affect mind, you don't need to say anything for it to work when it comes to something like that.
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"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times... before the Empire. "

Obi-Wan Kenobi

[Son of Fire]

Lets work with that hand gesture thing for a moment.
Now, in the rules for TK Kill or Mind Trick for that matter does it say anywhere that gestures are need in any fashion to accomplish a result? If it was mentioned in the descriptions of the powers I don’t remember it. Also Vader himself in TESB did not use gestures all the time using his TK Kill, the victim, err uh admiral Ozzel that is (or was as the case may be) but he was speaking to captain Piett (who was then promoted) while the admiral was choking to death in the background, and Vader only used his gesture in the beginning of that scene, not entirely through the duration of the choke.

But this issue is still a minor point, the greater point was the use of Force powers by Jedi to harm living beings and how DS pip come into play with new canon. My brining up of Luke was just to illustrate that point.
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"My schooling not only failed to teach me what it professed to be teaching, but prevented me from being educated to an extent which infuriates me when I think of all I might have learned at home by myself." - George Bernard Shaw

[Nathaniel]

[Crell Damar]

I still stand by my opinion that Luke only made them think that they were being choked, that said, I do belive if a Jedi uses the force to intentionally harm another being out of any emotion other than self defense, then that merits a darkside point. However, as a GM, when it comes to dealing out darkside points, I feel that the character's mindset when he commits the act is more important than the act itself. Because if a person believe's their life is in danger, they may do things that they otherwise wouldn't. But in the same respect, if the person you kill is intent on killing you, and there is no other alternative to violence, then what can you do? If in combat, you use telekenesis to slam your opponent into the wall instead of running him through with your lightsaber, or slashing of a limb or something, was using the force to cause harm any more evil? Now, if you continue slamming him into the wall after he's been incapacitated, then yes I believe it would constitute a darkside point.
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"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times... before the Empire. "

Obi-Wan Kenobi