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slaughterj
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 Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:46 pm Post subject: Spending Character Points to Boost Rolls |
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This wasn't in 1e, but got added later on, and I'm not really a fan of it, just as I don't care for spending XP in DnD to make items, etc. It seems like a kludge in DnD, and not much better in SW. I'm loathe to provide a mechanic that has players make tough choices between spending character points to get through a tough game session versus being able to use them to make their characters better. How have others handled this?
I don't mind the idea of some lesser mechanic to give boosts to rolls, but not at the expense of character advancement. One idea I had was for characters to note the character points earned from an adventure, and to be able to spend that amount on character advancement, but also have that amount available for use in the next adventure (only - if not used, they go away, but do accumulate at the end of the next adventure, and so on). So basically character points are two pools of equal number given at the end of an adventure, one of which is spent on advancement (and can be saved up for bigger purchases like attribute bumps), and the other of which serves as a small pool for boosting rolls in the next adventure. |
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Ankhanu
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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I find it works just fine, especially if you understand how Character Points are represented in the game mechanic.
Essentially, I never see anyone using character points to boost a roll unless they desperately want to succeed on that roll, or if they don't, are in risk of serious injury/death. This follows along with the descriptive text that infers that Character Point use is akin to minor manifestations of the Force that the character brings forth unconsciously in times of need/desperation. Essentially Character Point use in this manner is the proverbial giving it 110%; it's that little extra beyond the character's abilities, those little miraculous moments of personal triumph... or die trying 
I kind of think that surviving to move on to the next part of the story is one of the most important aspects of character advancement 
Giving two pools like you suggest is a bit overpowering, imo, and defies that idea of desperation and great need inherent in the standard use of Character Points, cheapening the idea of their use.
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Gry Sarth
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Joined: 25 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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I think the solution WEG found to provide PCs with a "last resort bonus" is the best there could be. Forcing players to choose between instant bonus and long-term advancement makes them think twice before burning a CP on a roll. Other systems, like CODA Lord of the Rings, provide a fixed amount of "bonus dice" to be used in an adventure, kind of like what you're suggesting. The problem there is that players don't value these points so much. They know they can spend all of them and they'll have more in the next adventure, loosing nothing from it. This takes away from the desperation of choosing to sacrifice your development for a momentary bonus.
Plus, imagine using the system you proposed. The character has 7 "bonus CPs" which he earned last adventure. He knows these points will only be available to him in the current adventure. The adventure is almost over and he still has 6 of those CPs left. Well, when your "boss battle" comes, don't you think the player will burn all those remaining points with no regard to wheter it's really necessary or not?
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slaughterj
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Certainly, if they haven't spend the points earlier, but they might well misjudge the "big boss battle" though. But that same point seems equally applicable to Force Points - the use of them against a typical big boss is probably in a heroic setting, where you will get the back after the session, so if you've saved them up, you can have at it without much worry. Why the big deal with character points, who use is of much less significance? Why make the cost associated with using them so much higher? Doesn't seem necessary. |
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Ankhanu
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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I think you might be misjudging what gets a Force Point back I think in the past 12 years, 4 Force Points have been spent in games I've played. It's ALWAYS a major decision.
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Gry Sarth
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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Same thing here. Over 10 years of SW gaming and I can surely count in one hand the Force Points used by the entire group. And a couple of them were not returned to the character, though they were wisely and correctly spent.
CPs are the way to go for that extra boost in most situation. But you have to squirm a bit before deciding to spend one, otherwise where's the sacrifice?
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Ankhanu wrote: | I find it works just fine, especially if you understand how Character Points are represented in the game mechanic.
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Same here.. I have no problem with the CP expenditure as it is wrote though i could see making it 2cp for normal stuff, 3 for specialties and 5 for 'saving your @$$ skills' rather than 2/5 as it is now..
| Ankhanu wrote: |
Essentially, I never see anyone using character points to boost a roll unless they desperately want to succeed on that roll, or if they don't, are in risk of serious injury/death. This follows along with the descriptive text that infers that Character Point use is akin to minor manifestations of the Force that the character brings forth unconsciously in times of need/desperation. Essentially Character Point use in this manner is the proverbial giving it 110%; it's that little extra beyond the character's abilities, those little miraculous moments of personal triumph... or die trying
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Sae here. In fact when Gming, i use a 'tier system' where when i have rolled more than them, i give them an indication of how bad it is.. I start with askiing them if they wish to leave their die roll as is. And if asked, i go with
"its a minor hit (or minor damage) for anything up to 6 more than the PC
"Its a solid hit (or damage)" for anything up to 12 over the pc
"Is a real good hit (or damage)" for anything up to 20 over the pc
"Its very good" for up to 28 over, and anything higher than that is "Its an outstanding" (insert adjective)..
This way the pc gets an indication (especially on opposed rolls) as to whether it might be not worth it to spend any CPs..
EG Scrog the stormtrooper lieutenant has commanded his 8 troopers to shoot Grog the PC gamorean. They hit with a whapping 44 on their to hit roll (though the pcs don't know that) and grog's dodge is only a 21. Looking at me, i ask him if he really wants to leave that as is. If he asked what kind of hit, i would tell him that it was a really good hit, which in 'hint speak' is telling him that 4 character points being spent at above high end average would be needed to make it a miss...
| Ankhanu wrote: |
I kind of think that surviving to move on to the next part of the story is one of the most important aspects of character advancement
Giving two pools like you suggest is a bit overpowering, imo, and defies that idea of desperation and great need inherent in the standard use of Character Points, cheapening the idea of their use. |
And it also makes those 'do i spend it now or wait to advance my skills' moments that DO come up in game less meaning full
| Quote: | | The problem there is that players don't value these points so much. They know they can spend all of them and they'll have more in the next adventure, loosing nothing from it. This takes away from the desperation of choosing to sacrifice your development for a momentary bonus. |
Well said Gry. too often when i have seen gms giving these 'fate points' that seem to always replenish themselves, it becomes more of an 'automatic bonus' than a 'last resort small manifestation of the force.
IF i was to go that route, i would make it a flat pool that did NOT automatically replinish itself after each adventure.
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masque
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:23 am Post subject: |
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I also agree with the CP rule as written. I generally spend CPs as I get them to advance my character, but I always make sure to keep 3-5 in reserve just in case I end up needing them. Unlike some others in this thread, we end up using them on a regular basis, if not what I would call a frequent basis. Sometimes the dice hate you, it's good to have them to fall back on, but I don't see any need to separate them from the character advancement function. I suppose it would hurt more with infrequent playing and a stingy GM, but we gamed biweekly and averaged 3-7 CPs earned per adventure, so it wasn't ever a big deal.
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Ankhanu
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:59 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, we use CPs with some regularity as well... but it's not a light decision and usually it's the only option that we can find to allow success or survival at a critical moment.
The 3-5pt reserve thing is a pretty standard action, I think. Yeah, you don't advance as fast, but it ensures that you can keep advancing at times.
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vong
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| Ankhanu wrote: | Yeah, we use CPs with some regularity as well... but it's not a light decision and usually it's the only option that we can find to allow success or survival at a critical moment.
The 3-5pt reserve thing is a pretty standard action, I think. Yeah, you don't advance as fast, but it ensures that you can keep advancing at times. |
I would have to agree with Ankhanu on this point. We always use it, even if to take down some mook i have had players use cps.
On the other hand i had friend who refused to spend cps on anything other the attributes, as it was most efficient to do so (in his mind)
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Gry Sarth
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:06 am Post subject: |
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I don't think anybody in this thread stated that they use CPs rarely. It was only said that about Force Points. We do use CPs on a regular basis, but it is never a light decision.
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slaughterj
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| Ankhanu wrote: | | I think you might be misjudging what gets a Force Point back I think in the past 12 years, 4 Force Points have been spent in games I've played. It's ALWAYS a major decision. |
Wow, that's amazing. When I run SW adventures, they all typically offer opportunities to be heroic - isn't that the point?! And therefore, Force point usage during such is recouped. Further, a dramatically appropriate moment comes up in at least some adventures, which means an extra point is earned then. Also, the Force is a central aspect of a SW game, and therefore some use of Force points should happen, else the game is more like typical scifi. Consequently, I really think your not playing them correctly or running SW correctly, else your characters would be involved in heroic activity on a regular basis and therefore be able to spend Force points and recoup them.
Further, what's the point of having a cap of 5 on non-FS characters, and where's the benefit to FS characters in your campaigns? If only 4 have ever been spent, while all may have been recouped, I doubt all got an extra point out of it, so no one ever reached this cap or got close.
Note, I am wary about giving out extra Force points (beyond those recouped for heroic actions), but have done so on occasion (e.g., when a PC volunteered to be Luke's co-pilot in the snowspeeder on Hoth!). If you haven't in 12 years of SW, then you really aren't running SW properly to not reasonably provide heroic moments to enable Force point use which is recouped or dramatic moments that enable extra ones to be earned.
I suspect those who don't run SW to enable heroic use of Force points and their frequently recoupment don't do this in part because they lean on use of character points to spend to help characters along. But I started with 1e, where character points weren't spent and couldn't be used as a crutch. Perhaps because of the later availability of such, that have affected SW gaming styles? |
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Gry Sarth
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| slaughterj wrote: | | If you haven't in 12 years of SW, then you really aren't running SW properly to not reasonably provide heroic moments to enable Force point use which is recouped or dramatic moments that enable extra ones to be earned. |
Okay. Easy there sport. Don't go saying to people that they are not "running SW properly", specially if they've been doing it for over a decade. They are just not running it like you do. I'm sure heroic situations arise aplenty, otherwise where's the fun? But perhaps the players see Force Points as a more precious thing than your players do, and thus won't spend them just because they are in the middle of an heroic situation. They will only spend if it is ABSOLUTELY UTTERLY essential that they do it. Again, it's the same issue we were discussing regarding CPs, which is whether you value them or wheter you spend them like it's a bodily function. Some of this might be defined by game mechanics, some by your own conscience. I happen to think that spending a Force Point in any heroic situation simply because I'm sure I'll get it back actually makes the scene LESS heroic.
Please don't lecture people around here. State your view of things and let the discussion roll. Rule of thumb is "There is no proper way to game". To each group its own.
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Ankhanu
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| Gry Sarth wrote: | | I happen to think that spending a Force Point in any heroic situation simply because I'm sure I'll get it back actually makes the scene LESS heroic. |
Absolutely agreed.
Plus, I don't just allow FP recovery for using one in a situation of high heroics, only if the FP is spent to BE heroic. Just using it because the situation is one of heroism does not mean that the act of using the point was, itself heroic, or the action it was used to augment.
We obviously have different playing styles. I'm ok with that... but if you're finding that CP and FP usage doesn't seem important enough in the game, perhaps its because of the way that you're using them.
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vong
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:39 am Post subject: |
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Ive experienced players of both styles of thought. One hordes it, the other memorizes the rules, so they know when the right moment is that they are sure to get it back. Both have their merit in RP and everything. The one to use it is usually in the front, and love the attention. the one who doesnt is the guy in the background, who when he does use it, its a big thing.
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