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Reyus Graven
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Joined: 10 Oct 2007
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Location: Anacortes, Wa
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 Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:17 am Post subject: DSP for force Telekenisis |
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Well it all depends on intent. Many Jedi many of which in the first movie use the force to kill lots of things. Mostly Droids but stormtroopers were not immune to their use of the force and they used so often. Mostly I would figure its intent.
Jedi can kill people with a lightsaber and not warrent a dark side point, however if they were to strike someone down with anger lightsaber or no then they would get a DSP. If you used a rock to hit someone with TK to protect yourself or others then no I wouldn't give a darkside point.
The force whether you live or die doesn't get deminished by someone dying that I can tell. the jedi have a saying "there is no death, just the force" as such it all comes down to murder is the darkside but killing someone out of self defence or to protect isn't. Though my one question would be when Luke force chokes the two Gammorreans was a DSP is it not. I might have handed it out to him for using killing force to disable the two gaurds.
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vong
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Joined: 30 Aug 2006
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:28 am Post subject: Re: DSP for force Telekenisis |
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| Esoomian wrote: | I'm not saying it's not a stretch but there is the possibility that with the right circumstances one might not be aware they're using the force to snuff out a life.
However we are somewhat off target at this point. Unless someone changes this thread to Vong vs. The Force or something  |
True, in hindsight i should have named it that.
| Reyus Graven wrote: | | Mostly I would figure its intent. |
I agree with this, if you access the force with anger, dsp. Even if you try to access the force to kill the vong in anger, a dsp should be given out even if you fail (but this is an argument for another thread  )
I wonder if the vong are immune to being part of premonitions...
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noctum_carpe
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Joined: 12 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:34 am Post subject: |
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One could argue that the Vong beeing imune to sense and alter aint alive since ther is no life there is force. And in ther case there is no force, no life. Voila no DSP 
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Last edited by noctum_carpe on Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ankhanu
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Joined: 13 Oct 2006
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:22 am Post subject: Re: DSP for force Telekenisis |
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| Reyus Graven wrote: | | If you used a rock to hit someone with TK to protect yourself or others then no I wouldn't give a darkside point. |
Such as in Splinter of the Mind's Eye when Luke escaped death by nailing a Nimbanite in the head with a rock using telekinesis.
| Vong wrote: | | I agree with this, if you access the force with anger, dsp. Even if you try to access the force to kill the vong in anger, a dsp should be given out even if you fail (but this is an argument for another thread ) |
I would argue that it's not necessarily even out of anger, but with conscious intent to do harm; it's possible, and likely, that a character will access the force completely without passion to cause great harm... the cold ones are the most evil
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vong
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Joined: 30 Aug 2006
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| noctum_carpe wrote: | | One could argue that the Vong beeing imune to sense and alter aint alive since ther is no life there is force. And in ther case there is no force, no life. Voila no DSP |
That is a very rocky argument. "I cant detect you, so your not alive, so i can kill you..."
and yes ank, its the cold calculating ones you have to worry about.
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noctum_carpe
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, but im just playing with the Jedi code here.
There is no life there is only force. But not with the vongs.
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Yes I was thinking if one had the power to create a high speed rotating vortex of stones and pebbles then that's totally defensive even if everyone charges it and gets killed and/or maimed.
However if you then back someone into a corner and then force them into the path of your swirling tornado of rocky doom then it becomes evil.
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Reyus Graven
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Joined: 10 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: DSP for force Telekenisis |
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[/quote]I would argue that it's not necessarily even out of anger, but with conscious intent to do harm; it's possible, and likely, that a character will access the force completely without passion to cause great harm... the cold ones are the most evil [/quote]
Cold ones seem evil cause they have no sort of human emotions with which humans can empathize. To kill someone without any passion at all is more machine than man. I wouldn't presume a Dark Jedi would be passionless as their strength comes from emotions. but i digress this is really a discussion for another post.
I would figure the Vong would still be sensible in the fact that they would still disturb the area they are in. I would say in some cases they might even set off some sort of premonition in which they would appear as this void in the force. Much like a cold spot in the middle of a fire.
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: DSP for force Telekenisis |
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| Reyus Graven wrote: | | Cold ones seem evil cause they have no sort of human emotions with which humans can empathize. To kill someone without any passion at all is more machine than man. I wouldn't presume a Dark Jedi would be passionless as their strength comes from emotions. but i digress this is really a discussion for another post. |
He's got a point, killing someone because you believe it's a good idea at the time, not based on any emotional input isn't a darkside thing.
Luke once slaughtered a bunch of Noghri because he couldn't think of any way he could not kill them and still get back in time to save his friends. I believe he threw his lightsaber and used TK to make it spin through a whole squad of Noghri because it was the most efficient way to kill them.
With that in mind I guess if crushing a Vong with a boulder was the only logical thing to do then it wouldn't be a dark side action.
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Last edited by Esoomian on Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ankhanu
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:55 pm Post subject: Re: DSP for force Telekenisis |
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| Reyus Graven wrote: | | I would figure the Vong would still be sensible in the fact that they would still disturb the area they are in. I would say in some cases they might even set off some sort of premonition in which they would appear as this void in the force. Much like a cold spot in the middle of a fire. |
Can you sense a cold spot in the middle of a fire? Chances are it would be masked by the ambient heat of the fire surrounding it, hiding its presence as a lack of heat... The Vong would be the same.
Or to use another analogue, you're floating in water. You can feel the water, you can hear, see and feel things happening at a distance in the water... but unless you see it, you probably can't sense or detect the lack of water in an air bubble.
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Reyus Graven
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:10 am Post subject: Re: DSP for force Telekenisis |
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| Ankhanu wrote: | Can you sense a cold spot in the middle of a fire? Chances are it would be masked by the ambient heat of the fire surrounding it, hiding its presence as a lack of heat... The Vong would be the same.
Or to use another analogue, you're floating in water. You can feel the water, you can hear, see and feel things happening at a distance in the water... but unless you see it, you probably can't sense or detect the lack of water in an air bubble. |
That is a good point. I would imagine that the force itself can notice where it is not but a force user prob shouldn't be the wiser that something isn't sturring the force
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Expendable Hero
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:37 am Post subject: |
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2 points for me.
1st if any killing that could be avoided causes a dark side point Luke has dozens at best. The simple reason is that if you have lightsaber combat one of the things you can do after you get good at it is choose if you are doing stun damage with your lightsaber or normal leathal damage. At no time in the movies does Luke ever use the stun function even though he is clearly strong enough in several of the fights to do so. This means that he didn't have to kill all of the people he did. How anyone can say force choke is any worse than cutting someone down with a lightsaber I'll never get, because at least with force kill there is no stun option and it works over distance. Which gives it some obvious advantages to simply cutting someone in half with a lighsaber. What if you don't have your lightsaber on you is it ok to kill someone with a different weapon. Can I use a blaster or does it have to be more personal to be lightside. Either way there still dead.
2nd I think that an analogy like sensing the dead space in fire or the water is fine. Sure a normal human can't detect it, but where not talking about normal humans. A normal human can even detect rocks and other objects in the water if there close. How about dolphins what can they detect in the water. If you took a picture and cut a hole out of it you would notice even if you didn't know for sure what was missing. If the Jedi can sense everything except for this one hole in the universe it wouldn't be like sensing cold in a fire it would be like sensing a hole in your roof or if someone suddenly cut a hole out of the sunset you where just watching. You would have a hard time not taking notice because it would stand out as being so different. |
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Reyus Graven
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:05 am Post subject: |
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A good point expendable.
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Ankhanu
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| Expendable Hero wrote: | | 2The simple reason is that if you have lightsaber combat one of the things you can do after you get good at it is choose if you are doing stun damage with your lightsaber or normal leathal damage. |
I believe this is incorrect. You can choose to reduce the damage code, but the damage is still lethal in nature. I've never encountered the ability to make it stun damage.
| Expendable Hero wrote: | | Either way there still dead. |
The rest of the point, I agree with. Lethal force, whether direct or indictly using the Force, is still lethal force. There is a lot of hypocritical disconnect between what we read as being an act of the Dark Side and what we see the Light Side Force users doing all the time.
| Expendable Hero wrote: | | 2nd I think that an analogy like sensing the dead space in fire or the water is fine. Sure a normal human can't detect it, but where not talking about normal humans. A normal human can even detect rocks and other objects in the water if there close. How about dolphins what can they detect in the water. If you took a picture and cut a hole out of it you would notice even if you didn't know for sure what was missing. If the Jedi can sense everything except for this one hole in the universe it wouldn't be like sensing cold in a fire it would be like sensing a hole in your roof or if someone suddenly cut a hole out of the sunset you where just watching. You would have a hard time not taking notice because it would stand out as being so different. |
I'm ok with the Jedi not being able to sense those null spaces... and its not a new concept. For instance, Jedi couldn't detect the null bubbles around Ysalamari either until they walked into the space without the Force. Jedi and their ability to sense the Force are limited. While they are intensely more powerful than normal beings, they are still more limited than the mystical beings of other fantasy/sci-fi settings. The inability to sense null spaces and beings seems to be one of those limitations.
The difficulty with the hole in the roof or picture analogies is that, unlike the water or fire ones, they deal more with a 2-D model than a 3-D one, in which the medium that the hole is being detected in isn't also surrounding the hole to mask its presence. Think of it kind of like a signal to noise ratio. There's a lot more noise (ie heat or water) in the way to mask a lack of it than there is picture to mask the hole. Though if you punched a hole in one picture and mixed it into a stack of pictures, it would be more like the idea... and just as difficult to detect.
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vong
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| Expendable Hero wrote: | | 2nd I think that an analogy like sensing the dead space in fire or the water is fine. Sure a normal human can't detect it, but where not talking about normal humans. A normal human can even detect rocks and other objects in the water if there close. How about dolphins what can they detect in the water. If you took a picture and cut a hole out of it you would notice even if you didn't know for sure what was missing. If the Jedi can sense everything except for this one hole in the universe it wouldn't be like sensing cold in a fire it would be like sensing a hole in your roof or if someone suddenly cut a hole out of the sunset you where just watching. You would have a hard time not taking notice because it would stand out as being so different. |
True, to a point. Ankhanu has a point where there is more noise. but near the end of the war Jedi were used to searching for the nothing, so they were starting to "detect" the bubble. but they had to be actively looking for it.
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