What do you consider Metagaming?

[garhkal]

Bringing this discussion from over on Dragonsfoot (an adnd old school style site)..

A) What do you consider metagaming
B) what "level of metagaming" do you allow?
C) when it steps out of bounds, how do you reign it in?
D) Do you punish those out of bounds steppers??

Eg. PC1-4 are on Nal-shadder in the hangerbay, sqabbling over parts and prices to upgrade their ship, while PC5 is on Nal-hutta. He all of a sudden gets into trouble. AND has no comlink (or is getting jammed)..

Is it metagaming to you, for him to ask advice of the other players?

is it metagaming for the other players to all of a sudden get interested in their comrade and go to his ;aid'??
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[Ankhanu]

[Endwyn]

I have to agree with the above.

I would like to add that sometimes NOT hearing from someone is a tip off. Obviously if he didn't take a comlink that doesn't apply to this specific situation; but it isn't uncommon for players to have "regular check-ins" and get concerned when one is missed.

If that was the case, then instantly running off would be metagaming, but asking (or being told) that the check in time had not yet elapsed would not be metagaming.

I honestly find that the most common version of metagaming comes from a character not having a defined backstory and retconning it to allow for metagame knowledge at his/her convenience.
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Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out.

[Ankhanu]

[Jedi Skyler]

[Endwyn]

It drives me up a wall to play with people without character back-story because they often also lack goals, drives, and motivations. It's like playing with a one-dimensional build a lot of the time...and those people often love to meta-game their back-story.
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out.

[krysallokard]

Luckily my current group is mature enough not to do such things, not much anyway...

Although we have a running joke about it. Often times a player will suggest something when their character is not present. Usually some else will then say, "You hear from off in the distance, 'do this!'"

[masque]

I actually had my GM adding to my background on the fly in our last game session, in order to further the plot. It went well, I thought, but it was amusing to me to have to GM be on the "metagaming" side of things for once.
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Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.

[vong]

lol. The GM Never metagames. He is all knowing. so much so, sometimes you dont even realize you knew that all along. he will bend reality to suit himself (or herself). muahahahahaha

UNLIMITED POWER *insert cackle*
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[Endwyn]

I've had a GM retcon my character to have pieces of a back-story. It was cool though. It was one of my first characters ever and he didn't have much of a back-story. (I think it consisted of being an orphan and not much more.) Anyways, the new stuff really helped my character have back-story.

In my experience as long as the GM doesn't contradict the existing back-story a player doesn't mind having some stuff added.
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out.

[Jedi Skyler]

Agreed, Endwyn. It's ALWAYS nicer if the player and GM have a good enough working relationship to where they can cook up some really interesting backstory. A good player will submit good ideas, and a good GM will be able to offer good countersuggestions for not-so-good ideas.

It's a beautiful thing!

[scott2978]

I actually encourage metagaming in some cases. I used to be very anti-metagame but recently I've realized that metagaming can be a tool for making the game more fun, both for the players and the GM too. I encourage the group to use metagame knowledge when it helps the story along. I would never allow it for personal gain though.

As an example, if my group was in the situation above and the group wanted to go help the other PC, I'd frown upon them simply trying to call him on the comlink and rushing to his rescue when he doesn't answer, but I'd still allow it. I would prefer if they came up with a more exciting (if not plausible) explanation, but if it keeps things moving I'm ok with it as long as it's not for personal gain.

Scott

[Ankhanu]

In many ways the responsibility to get the characters to help the other character (if that is the goal) lay with the GM. It's up to the GM to come up with a plausible reason as to why the PCs might notice something is amiss with the other character. Having PCs use metagamed knowledge to reach a conclusion is, in reality, GM laziness.
If, of course, the GM's plan is to not have the PCs realize something has happened to the other character until after the fact, it then becomes their responsibility to prevent the other PCs from finding out some how until later.

[scott2978]

With respect, Ankhanu, I must disagree. It is NEVER the GM's responsibility to "get the characters to do" anything. The GM presents the world and arbitrates NPC actions, but the GM is not responsible in any way for how the PC's react to anything. It is the players who have that responsibility. It's not the GM's job to come up with ways for the group to notice something. It's the player's job to come up with ways for their characters to notice something.

In the above example, the GM goal is not to seperate the group, that has already been done by the PCs. It's not the GM's goal to keep the group from finding out what's happening to the missing PC, if the group really cares they will have a plan to check in with him at some point already, or if they don't have any plan, then that's their problem, not the GM's!

If for some reason the GM wanted for the group to come to his rescue, then he could encourage the group to do so, but in no way is it his responsibility to make sure the group comes up with a plausible reason for doing so. Merely a "gut feeling" is enough for the PCs to go looking for him. I'm sure this happens to all of us almost every day, we get a gut feeling about something with no evidence one way or the other. And if the GM for some reason wanted the group to not come to their comrade's rescue, there are uncountable ways to make sure that doesn't happen besides telling a PC "you can't do that because it's metagame knowledge".

Metagaming is an integral part of role playing. You don't know every single thing your PC knows and he doesn't know every single thing you know, but you are both being controlled by the same mind. So Metagaming is a way to keep the two minds seperate. In a way, role playing IS metagaming! However, if a situation ever arises in-game where the game would be more cool if the PCs knew something they don't, why deny that based on metagaming? And if the PCs think it would be cool to have a premonition that their buddy is in trouble, why not? It's your job to make sure they don't use metagaming to HURT the game, not to make sure they NEVER use it.

That's just my opinion, everyone is entitled to their own.

Scott

[Ankhanu]

It's the responsibility of the GM, as a director and story teller to guide the game in a direction benefiting the story. Of course, if there is no story to it and the GM is simply creating encounters, yeah, you're entirely right.

I agree with you to a point. In my opinion, a good GM directs a plot. You can't predict how characters will react/interact with a situation, but it is the GM's responsibility to nudge, sway and invisibly coerce the direction of events to align with the intended plot; though it may take some side routes and unexpected twists along the way. This may allow the use of mild metagaiming from time to time, but the GM should have the sense to veto attempts that don't make good sense or don't fit with the theme of the story. Likewise, it is not outside of the realm of the GM's toolbox to give offers for characters to pick up on to get a desired result. If the PCs don't pick up on it, it's then the GM's responsibility to bring the game back to where it should be through a more circuitous route than they had planned. Being able to adapt is very important; no you can't control your players, but you can guide them without them realizing it.

Being a good GM is a lot of work, but a good story is worth it for everyone involved in the end.