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Firehawk0220
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 151
Location: Dallas, TX.
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 Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Gry Sarth wrote: | He's not doing it for personal gain. He's doing it to free a slave, protect a queen and rescue a planet. Plus, if Watto had not bet on Sebulba, he would still have profitted from all that.
"Either way, you win." |
Agreed. I think the intentions and the circumstances behind the action are often more important than the action itself.
Would using force lightning to kill someone out of anger, hatred or boredom be the same as doing it to defend someone when there was no other weapon available, even perhaps while the force user was unable to move physically? This hypothetical situation forces the individual to use the force for violence for a greater good and not out of malicious intent.
So while Force lightning is associated with the Dark Side, its use in this instance isn't dark side in nature. |
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PsiberDragon
Commander
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 260
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| Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Firehawk0220 wrote: | | Gry Sarth wrote: | He's not doing it for personal gain. He's doing it to free a slave, protect a queen and rescue a planet. Plus, if Watto had not bet on Sebulba, he would still have profitted from all that.
"Either way, you win." |
Agreed. I think the intentions and the circumstances behind the action are often more important than the action itself.
Would using force lightning to kill someone out of anger, hatred or boredom be the same as doing it to defend someone when there was no other weapon available, even perhaps while the force user was unable to move physically? This hypothetical situation forces the individual to use the force for violence for a greater good and not out of malicious intent.
So while Force lightning is associated with the Dark Side, its use in this instance isn't dark side in nature. |
Gotta disagree a bit here. My thought is that it's not your intention, but more the fact that you are drawing on the dark side of the force to cause harm, regardless of the reasons. Kind of like using FL to destroy a ship's computer or something similar. You are still using the negative, destructive side of the force.
Again, just my 2 centicreds.
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"Love like you will die tomorrow. Hate like you will live forever." - Unknown |
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Gry Sarth
Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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I agree. The ends do not justify the means.
All Anakin wanted was to bring order, security and prosperity to the galaxy, besides saving the life of his beloved wife. These are all certainly noble goals, however the path he took to accomplish those goals are what drove him to the dark side.
Consider Luke. Killing Darth Vader would certainly do the galaxy a lot of good, and yet he restrains from striking him down, thus choosing the path of light.
To further justify what I said before about Qui-Gon, the thing is, not only his goals were noble, but also his means were not really condemnable. He made a deal with Watto, a semi-honest one (he only lied about whose the podrace was, no big harm there), and the only instance he "cheated" was with the dice. And that was something that really didn't harm Watto in any way, it was just to decide whether he would bet Anakin or Shmi, they are both worth about the same to him. So, not only were Qui-Gon's goals noble and altruistic, but his means of attaining them did not really harm or hamper anyone.
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"He's Gry Sarth, of course he has the stats for them." |
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darthomer09
Commodore
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 1392
Location: Virginia, USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| Gry Sarth wrote: | | To further justify what I said before about Qui-Gon, the thing is, not only his goals were noble, but also his means were not really condemnable. He made a deal with Watto, a semi-honest one (he only lied about whose the podrace was, no big harm there), and the only instance he "cheated" was with the dice. And that was something that really didn't harm Watto in any way, it was just to decide whether he would bet Anakin or Shmi, they are both worth about the same to him. So, not only were Qui-Gon's goals noble and altruistic, but his means of attaining them did not really harm or hamper anyone. |
Hmm. I would like to bring up a point. What if in changing the dice and losing Anakin, Watto went on a downward spiral eventually leading him to be killed by mobsters. A direct cause of Qui-Gons action. Would that contitute a DSP? 
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Rebel Uprisings
In Soviet Russia, RPG plays you!! |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14230
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Also another question - I think the Star Wars 2nd edition R&E talks about warning a player that an action will give them a DSP before they do it. I don't think it said you HAD to do that, but did mention it as something you COULD do. What are your policies on this? Seems like some of you warn but some of you enjoy catching players with DSP's... |
Yes, the book does say to give warnings, but i feel if hte act is (to me) blaintently evil ; like one guy who dropped a TD into an elevator full of stormies, after someone already stunned them, "just to ensure we never have to worry about them later", would go straight to getting one...
| Quote: | | Jedi Skyler, the argument you make here about the Dark Side holding up your ideals and tying its methods in with them, looks alot like the Dark Side is at work when you are trying for a "good" result, but use an evil "means" or "method" to get it. Would people agree with that? |
To ME, whether trying to do good, or not, if you use evil to do so, you have paved the way to become evil... the road to hell and all that..
| Quote: | Would using force lightning to kill someone out of anger, hatred or boredom be the same as doing it to defend someone when there was no other weapon available, even perhaps while the force user was unable to move physically? This hypothetical situation forces the individual to use the force for violence for a greater good and not out of malicious intent.
So while Force lightning is associated with the Dark Side, its use in this instance isn't dark side in nature. |
I disagree. The force does not (IMO) look at your intentions for the action, but what you did...
| Quote: | | Hmm. I would like to bring up a point. What if in changing the dice and losing Anakin, Watto went on a downward spiral eventually leading him to be killed by mobsters. A direct cause of Qui-Gons action. Would that contitute a DSP? |
Nope. If i used the force on you to make you change from an imperial interrogator, to join the rebellion, then next week you died in an imperial raid, i would only be technically responsible for your death...
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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masque
Captain
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 626
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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bump.
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Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid. |
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CmdrDarmic
Cadet
Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 20
Location: Conroe, TX (N. of Houston)
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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This is all a classic example of: Do the ends justify the means?
For a NFS character: usually yes.
For a FS Character: almost always no.
This is what truly sets a FS character apart, not the ability to do weird things with your mind. A FS character is personally involved in the struggle between right and wrong (light and dark) and must act accordingly. A FS character must evaluate each situation based on this struggle.
A light FS character (i.e. a Jedi) understands that using the dark side to do good is just as bad as using the dark side to do evil. It is the method of achieving the results that determines the action's 'lightness' or 'darkness'.
To quote Jedi Skyler:
| Quote: | I guess I could have worded that a little better...
The dark side will try to convince you to use its methods to achieve your goals. And since you're a high and mighty Jedi, you MUST be doing the right thing, right?
I mean sure, you could go up to that pair of stormtroopers, speak to them rationally like adults, and convince them that the people they're about to herd out the airlock really don't deserve to be dragged away, sent to Carida, and have their minds wiped and reprogrammed to be good little Imperials...
...OR, you could help those people avoid that fate AND keep yourself from getting shot at by hurling a little bit of Force Lightning at the troopers. It'll take 'em down quick and hard, and will make it just that much easier to get these innocents out of here. |
Fear (innocents will suffer) leads to anger, anger (those lousy troopers) leads to hate, hate (I'll show them the power of the Force) leads to suffering, suffering (* sound of Force lightning *) leads to the dark side.
To my understanding, the way one produces Force lightning is by calling on all of those dark emotions. If that is the case, there is no way to produce Force lightning other than by calling on the dark side. |
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masque
Captain
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 626
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| CmdrDarmic wrote: | This is all a classic example of: Do the ends justify the means?
For a NFS character: usually yes.
For a FS Character: almost always no. |
Exactly.
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Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid. |
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PsiberDragon
Commander
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 260
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| CmdrDarmic wrote: |
Fear (innocents will suffer) leads to anger, anger (those lousy troopers) leads to hate, hate (I'll show them the power of the Force) leads to suffering, suffering (* sound of Force lightning *) leads to the dark side. |
I've gotta say that's a good way to put that adage ... 
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"Love like you will die tomorrow. Hate like you will live forever." - Unknown |
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Phalanks Balas
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 05 Jul 2005
Posts: 176
Location: Paris - France
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| Firehawk0220 wrote: |
Would using force lightning to kill someone out of anger, hatred or boredom be the same as doing it to defend someone when there was no other weapon available, even perhaps while the force user was unable to move physically? This hypothetical situation forces the individual to use the force for violence for a greater good and not out of malicious intent.
So while Force lightning is associated with the Dark Side, its use in this instance isn't dark side in nature. |
Well I don't agree with you Firehawk. Using force lightning means use anger and hate to generate it. In your exemple, it is the easy way. Generaly the easy way lead to the dark side... If a character can use force lightning she can use telekinesis to push or disarm the assaillant. Using a FP, she can also use control mind to fear...
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Phalanks
A day you will be facing the guns of the Black Pearl. You will know what means damned pirates ! |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14230
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:23 am Post subject: |
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And to the dark side (IMO) the ends do NOT justify the means. You tap into the dark side for power, even if doing good, you still tapped into the darkside..
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Endwyn
Commander
Joined: 22 Jul 2005
Posts: 481
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:22 am Post subject: |
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We use the call on the dark side rules. We rarely have to temp the other players, when a character feels the temptation they usually act it out if the succumb they take their DSP and the "force point" and run with it.
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Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out. |
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Sith'Ari Lizanthrin
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 101
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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First post, finally.
I would like to weigh in on the subject at hand. Force Lightning without malicious intent is known as Electric Judgement. Luke's signature EJ was Green in color. Most other Jedi to use this controversial power had Gold colored electricity. Of course we are speaking of a strictly EU ability here. One that is not canonical in any way for the d6 system and that was never covered in the lists of force powers.
Source: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Electric_Judgement
Quotes relevant to the power mentioned:
"This power was both uncommon and controversial among the Jedi because of its similarity to the dark side technique and its association with anger and aggression."
"This power, in the New Jedi Order series, was referred to as "emerald lightning." In Destiny's Way, it is said that Jacen used this power because of his familiarity with Force Shock (he used it against Vergere in Traitor). Luke probably was able to use this power because of his long years of meditation on the light side. Jacen said very clearly that it did not kill enemies, but it sapped their strength and willpower."
Though I agree with almost every elder poster in this board in regards to the Dark Side and the ends not justifying the means I felt it necessary to remind people there was a "non-DSP" Force Lightning out there. So Force Lightning without the hate, but with a bit of righteous anger, is no longer Force Lightning but is instead Electric Judgement.
Pardon the name on my account.Sith'ari Lizanthrin comes from a character very dear to me. The name comes from a long time 1:1 game I have been involved in where as Luke is winding down and the Skywalker family's time as the bringers of balance leaves, mine has arisen. And in our own timeline. I have destroyed the Sith as they were and rebuilt them anew. Long story not enough time for it this second.
It is a pleasure to finally be a poster here on these boards.
Other than that I am truly enjoying the debate.
Thanks for listening,
Alexis Dority
*smiles* |
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PsiberDragon
Commander
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 260
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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First off, for my 200th post:
Sith'Ari... welcome to the Pit.
Next...
I think that we've all pretty much agreed that force lightning, as written is a DSP worthy action.
Which begins to beg several questions: How do you determine the intention of the character (via the player's actions)?
Can a Jedi really learn/use electric judgment w/out gaining a DSP?
This one seems almost answerable by the quote provided: "This power was both uncommon and controversial among the Jedi because of its similarity to the dark side technique and its association with anger and aggression."
and also: "Force Lightning without the hate, but with a bit of righteous anger" - considering that a Jedi is not supposed to feel anger at all... righteous or otherwise.
(Because of this, I would STILL give it a DSP, imho.)
Finally, any guesses on how to work damages, since EJ "did not kill enemies, but it sapped their strength and willpower."
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"Love like you will die tomorrow. Hate like you will live forever." - Unknown |
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Sith'Ari Lizanthrin
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 101
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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I am still working on my EU extended force powers and talents list.
Basically I have spent the past 3 months going through every single force users bio in Wookiee and jotting down anything odd done with the force. Have also covered odd traditions. The variety expressed is astounding.
My words were "righteous anger". Those did not come from a quote. And they may have been wrong. The two conflicting parts of it, are that it IS distinguishable from Force Lightning, and that whether taught by the Praxeum or stumbled upon by those who found it, it was a Jedi technique.
The line "Luke probably was able to use this power because of his long years of meditation on the light side" truly confounds me on it.
I would say it can be used in a state of calm, but therein lies its controversy among Jedi. If it is also able to be used while angry, and indeed lends itself to aggression, is it really light side to use it?
I would award DSP's based on the situation and way a character declared the action.
"You see the Stormtrooper standing over your friend, looks like he is going to fire, what do you do?"
-"Knowing I have to act, and act fast, and also knowing I can't hit him with TK and guarantee he won't shoot. I clear my mind and use Electric Judgement, making sure to stop the moment he is unconcious." No DSP awarded for its use, though the temptation exists.
-"Crap, he's gonna kill her? Well hell, I toss Electric Judgement at him! (rolls dmg, Stormtrooper dies) Better him than her." DSP awarded
-"I can't let him do this. This is wrong. He has to die. Electric Judgement. (wether or not stormtrooper dies)- DSP awarded for intent.
That's my two creds, now I need to work on the dmg and rules for it. But once I get my list of extended EU abilities done up it'll be in there.
And thank you for the welcome.
Alexis Dority
*smiles* |
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