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Gry Sarth
Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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 Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:07 am Post subject: |
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Ok, here's my set of conversion charts from 2nd Ed RPG to Star Warriors (at least what I need from it):
http://download.yousendit.com/23A4433371CEDDCB
Most of it is just replicated info from the Rules Companion. What I created was a direct conversion from Space to Max Speed, a chart of Turn Numbers related to Maneuverability and applied the Weapon Ranges to the hex system (assuming 1 hex = 4 space units).
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Gry Sarth
Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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Here's my take on a slight modification of the Movement Failure table and collision rules:
Starship Movement Failures
1-3. Slight slip. The ships "slips," nearly spinning out of control. While the ship can turn normally, the pilot loses 2 of his planned maneuvers and suffers a penalty of -1D to all actions for the rest of the round (in addition to normal multiple action penalties).
4-6. Slip. The ship "bobbles," nearly spinning out of control. While the ship can turn normally, the pilot loses 4 of his planned maneuvers, suffers a penalty of -3D to all actions for the rest of the round, and -1D to all actions for the next round (in addition to normal multiple action penalties).
7-10. Spin. The ship goes spinning out of control. The pilot cannot control the ship for the rest of the round, losing all maneuvers and being unable to turn. He suffers a -3D penalty for the next round.
11-15. Minor collision. If there's anything to hit, the ship has a minor collision (subtract -3D from normal collision damage; see "Collisions"). Otherwise, the ship goes spinning wildly out of control. The pilot cannot control the ship for the rest of the round and the next round, losing all maneuvers and being unable to turn.
16-20. Collision. If there's anything to hit, the ship has a collision, suffering normal damage. Otherwise, the ship goes spinning wildly out of control. The pilot cannot control the ship for the rest of the round and the next round, losing all maneuvers and being unable to turn.
21+. Major collision. If there's anything to hit, the ship smashes into an obstacle at such a poor angle as to increase collision damage by +4D. (See "Collisions.") Otherwise, the ship goes spinning out of control. The pilot cannot control the ship for the rest of the round and the next round, losing all maneuvers and being unable to turn.
Collisions
The amount of collision damage depends on how fast the starship was moving. If the starship crashes on a moving object (such as another starship), calculate the total collision speed according to the direction each ship is moving: If they are moving at opposite directions, add both speeds together. If they are moving in the same direction, subtract the slowest speed from the greater speed. If they are moving in “perpendicular” directions use only the crashing starship’s speed. Both ships suffer the damage. (Don't forget to take into account scale differences where pertinent.) The damage is equal to the Speed total number minus one in dice (ie. If the total collision Speed is 8, the damage is 7D) to a minimum of 1D and a maximum of 13D damage.
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Aardon24689
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 64
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:39 am Post subject: |
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| MA-3PO wrote: | Okay, maybe in retrospect I should have put this thread in houserules but sorry, here it goes:
Dueling Fighters Combat Variant
Some of this should seem familiar to you. I modifed the Dueling Blades rules created by Peter Schweighofer to be used in starfighter dogfights. Just to give Peter due credit, much of these rules are exactly what he wrote.
Each pilot rolls his starfighter piloting+maneuver skill dice. The higher total wins that round. The difference between the two indicates the combat results. In the event of a tie the pilots can roll sensors rolls to determine who sees who first.
Winning Difference/Combat Effect
1-5/Force move
6-10/Outmaneuver: -1D to all rolls next round
11-15/Attack
16+/Trick
The combat result is determined by how much higher one pilot rolls over another. Movement difficulties and failures apply to this roll. Dogfights in open space should not be a problem but beware the dogfighting in an asteroid field. MAPs also applies.
Force move: One pilot's maneuvers and shots are so well placed that the loser must retreat, often in a direction he'd rather not be heading. This is a great way for a more skilled pilot to force a novice one into fighting in an asteroid field or between the girders of an unfinished space station; places where the novice is much more likely to fail his piloting rolls. It could also be used to herd an enemy towards a capital ship's batteries or tractor beam. The GM can determine how many Forced move results this will take.
Outmaneuver: The pilot manages to outmaneuver his opponent causing him to scramble evasively. His opponent suffers from a -1D penalty against all actions for the next round only. The loser can still act, but at significant disadvantage.
Attack: The winning pilot manages to maneuver well enough to place his opponent in his "kill zone". The pilot makes a starship gunnery roll and his opponent can attempt a reflexive dodge or shield roll. If the opponent was Outmaneuvered in the last round he suffers a -1D to this roll in addition to MAPs.
Trick: The winner is such a good pilot that he manages to pull off some kind of trick combat maneuver on the loser. This can be two attacks, a called shot, or disengagment from the dogfight. The winner, with the GMs guidance, can help determine the exact effect.
If the winner disengages then his opponent should be required to roll some starship piloting rolls if he wishes to engage him again. The difficulty could depend on the relative speed difference between the two fighters.
Notes: The winner may always choose a lower option, no matter how high he rolls. A good pilot knows how to produce the desired effect, whether to herd his opponent into a particular area or outright damage or destroy him.
Example: X-wing Red 1 rolls a 28 against Assault Gunboat Alpha's score of 15. Red 1 could attack Alpha according to the rules. However, Red 1 wants to toy with this gunboat a bit more. Red 1 heads off Alpha and forces him to turn towards and into the range of a corvette's turbolasers. Red 1 could also "Outmaneuver" him, lowering his roll next round by -1D. (This could be especially useful next round if Red 1 is trying to get a higher score to execute a combat-related maneuver with the "Trick" result.) |
I think this fits in well with what I have in mind for the new campaign I'm getting ready to start. I do see this working well for Starfighter combat where both ships have forward facing weapons. But how do you adjust this for ships with turrets. My characters will mostly be on transport ships and have turrets. Do they get to fire every round? Or does the pilot still have to get them into position? Maybe they can still attack at a -2D for a Force Move, -1D for a Outmanuver and attack normally after that. And now that I think about it how about against multiple ships. Say I have 4 fighters attacking my transport. Ideas? |
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Liam (Gunman) Kissane
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Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 73
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:47 am Post subject: |
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First of all, welcome aboard Aardon. 
I read Duelling Fighters as being about dogfight maneuvering more than weapons targetting, but my answers to you questions follow:
In a turrets situation I would have the gunners being able to fire every round, unless the PC pilot has been Tricked. If the PC pilot wins the roll, the gunners fire without penalty (except MAPs). If the PC pilot loses the roll, the gunners fire with a -1D, -2D or -3D penalty from being Force Moved, Outmaneuvered or Attacked (MAPs apply).
As for multiple enimies, I would have just 1 roll for the flight group vs the PC pilot.
I'll be interested to see what others post as their thoughts too. |
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Aardon24689
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 64
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:15 am Post subject: |
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That makes a lot of sense for the turret situation Liam. I'm going to be doing some micro-games before starting the campaign to test the systems and will let you know how it goes.
I'm still not sure about the multiple targets. What you said would work in some scinarios, like 3 TIE's flying in formation, but not others. Say the group picks up a starfighter so we have 1 Starfighter and 1 Freighter with 2 turrets VS 6 TIE's not flying in formation. Right off hand I'm thinking each pilot has to designate which enemy they are piloting against. I think this could work well with covering each other, Starfighter takes out the TIE going at the Freighter. It might involve to many D6 rolls but I think with what I have in mind for incorporating miniatures it should work. It would also be fast and exciting without being overly simple. |
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Aardon24689
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 64
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| Forgot to mention. I actually have Star Warriors and may give that a try but I'm not thinking that is the kind of playing my group would enjoy. They have never been into detailed space combat like I have. |
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MA-3PO
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 17 Apr 2005
Posts: 236
Location: Olathe, Kansas
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Aardon24689 wrote: | | I think this fits in well with what I have in mind for the new campaign I'm getting ready to start. I do see this working well for Starfighter combat where both ships have forward facing weapons. But how do you adjust this for ships with turrets. My characters will mostly be on transport ships and have turrets. Do they get to fire every round? Or does the pilot still have to get them into position? Maybe they can still attack at a -2D for a Force Move, -1D for a Outmanuver and attack normally after that. And now that I think about it how about against multiple ships. Say I have 4 fighters attacking my transport. Ideas? |
I would say there would still be some jockeying for position even if the gunners are in turrets. The best example that I can think of would be Episode IV when they are escaping from the Death Star. The penalties that you suggested might work.
As for more than one fighter attacking the ship I would just use the standard combined action rules and roll one roll for all the opposing fighters giving the roll the combined action bonus.
I was actually able to playtest these rules about two weeks ago. My players liked it because it did speed up starfighter combat, however a few of them complained that it didn't give them enough options and they wanted more control than just a simple opposed die roll. I'm looking for ways that I could improve these rules to accomplish this, especially if it is 2 fighters vs. 2 fighters, etc... One way of doing this was somehow incorporating the startfighter combat maneuvers in the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook. I haven't figured out exactly how to do this yet but I was thinking about removing the Forced Move option (or at least opening it up more) in that would allow the winner of the roll to attempt some kind of maneuver the next round. There would be no gurantee of a benefit (as in outmaneuver -1D) but could put winner of the previous round in some kind of advantage. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14303
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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How's about making the 'target' number for their opposed roll incorporate those maneuvers they are wishing to try...
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Liam (Gunman) Kissane
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Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 73
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:39 am Post subject: |
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IMHO at the end of the day, no matter what the players might want their pilots to do, it comes down to the opposed roll and the creative description of what is happening. Having said that I am all for the Players having creative input into what they would like to see their PCs do, it adds flavour to the game, and may give the GM ideas. 
If the PC wins the roll (and the difficulty as garhkal suggested) - great, the pilot makes the intended maneuver to a certain degree (how well is decided by the result of the opposed roll and success of the difficulty). If not, the NPC either saw it coming and evaded or just piloted better during that round.
If the PC wins the opposed roll but does not beat the maneuver difficulty, he still ends up in an advantagous position over his target, but just not quite the way he might have intended it to happen.
MA-3PO, I think you may have already answered your own question about how to handle 2 fighters vs 2 fighters etc. If a group of fighters are flying in formation against 1 target, they use the combined action rule, if they are approaching from different vectors, they roll independantly.
I think this would work with multiple targets also (such as Aardon's Freighter and Fighter example) vs 1 group of fighters (his 6 TIEs), although the TIEs would have to be split into 2 flight groups according to their intended target, then treat as 2 independant fights. The Turret Gunners or Fighter may however get an opportunity to fire at the other's TIEs at the discretion of the GM (a penalty may apply).
Gee I love the Rancor Pit!  What a great place to flesh out ideas! |
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Gry Sarth
Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| Liam (Gunman) Kissane wrote: | | IMHO at the end of the day, no matter what the players might want their pilots to do, it comes down to the opposed roll and the creative description of what is happening. |
That's exactly why I'm searching for something different. I've always played it like that and, frankly, it's not enough. Specially if you have players that LIKE space combat, who always played the X-Wing games, etc. Narrowing it down to opposed rolls and flashy descriptions doesn't quite cut it. That's why I'm trying to incoprorate aspects of the Star Warriors game into my RPG space combats. That way the players can actually perform maneuvers, and through them gain the upper hand on their enemies. They can plan strategies and execute them. And even if they are not better pilots than the enemy, they might still win if they choose the right approach.
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Darth Mischevious
Cadet
Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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I'm with Gry on this too. I'm still seeking to assemble a new group of players, but in the past my players have always enjoyed the space combats but have usually wanted to see their maneuvers unfold and to have the satisfaction of pulling off their own clever stunts instead of just describing them. It just feels different when done this way.
Gry, I like what you've done with the tables etc. I think I still personally prefer something closer to the Star Warriors table instead of the RPG for the mishaps chart - for one thing, the RPG chart could result in a LOT of collisions, which is going to be a bit messy. Not sure if I want to see the player's ship(s) wiped out in that manner. I prefer them having the drama of struggling with lateral stabiliser problems and so forth rather than crashing straight into something. However, the idea of bringing in bits of the RPG is great, and I'll be trying out the rest of it...
If anyone is interested enough to start looking at miniatures for space battles, there's a few options available. First up is the old Micro Machine range - and of course there's the new WOTC miniatures too. Other links posted below - there's a growing 1/20000th range of major vessels, and some acompanying fighters. Lots of references on the discussion boards at the Starship Combat News (Star Ranger) website. There's also a small range of fighters at Studio Bergstrom too:
http://www.star-ranger.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1076&start=0
http://www.star-ranger.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1105&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Meteor/4155/newminis/newminis.html
Hope that this may of some use/interest to someone out there! |
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Aardon24689
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 64
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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I really wish my group would be interested in that. I'm a ship nut and as a PC always wanted a detailed space experience. But it might it really tough when I was an Ace starfighter pilot and not other PCs had any piloting experience or interest. It didn't help that the GM wasn't all the interested either. We'll see after this one starts and I'm GMing if interest starts to grow. Everyone just bought the new Star Wars Miniatures Starship Battles (I'm sitting listening for the UPS truck with my 2 cases coming today) so I know there is at least some interest. Its to bad the rules in that game are so aweful, but the miniatures are BEAUTIFUL and the scale fits them right in with my old Micro Machine Miniatures so I can make 50 TIE fighters against our hero's freighter if it comes to that.
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MA-3PO
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 17 Apr 2005
Posts: 236
Location: Olathe, Kansas
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Gry Sarth wrote: | | Liam (Gunman) Kissane wrote: | | IMHO at the end of the day, no matter what the players might want their pilots to do, it comes down to the opposed roll and the creative description of what is happening. |
That's exactly why I'm searching for something different. I've always played it like that and, frankly, it's not enough. Specially if you have players that LIKE space combat, who always played the X-Wing games, etc. Narrowing it down to opposed rolls and flashy descriptions doesn't quite cut it. That's why I'm trying to incoprorate aspects of the Star Warriors game into my RPG space combats. That way the players can actually perform maneuvers, and through them gain the upper hand on their enemies. They can plan strategies and execute them. And even if they are not better pilots than the enemy, they might still win if they choose the right approach. |
Yet at the same time I don't want to turn my RPG into a tactical "count out the squares" game. Minis are cool to as props to show relative postion on the game table but when people start focusing on them I notice roleplay starts going out the window. It's a tough balance to achieve in a game. Honestly Star Warriors sounds cool but I don't know where I could ever get a copy. |
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Xynar
Commander
Joined: 10 Aug 2003
Posts: 283
Location: Northwest Indiana
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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My players don't like the restrictions of two dimensional space combat. They love the "fly by the seat of your pants" feel that descriptions do. The only issue has been with maneuvers. They never covered how maneuvers help (like barrel rolls) in the RPG book. So basicly I adlib most of the combat maneuvering and use opposed rolls.
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Xynar
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MA-3PO
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 17 Apr 2005
Posts: 236
Location: Olathe, Kansas
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| Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Gry, weren't you working on your own starfighter combat system? How's that coming along? |
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