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cheshire
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 Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Okay, I've got some feeback, and I'd like to take a look at Force Breach.
The way that it's currently written leaves me with a question or two.
Here's what we've got:
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Force Breach
Sense Difficulty: Moderate
Alter Difficulty: Easy plus the target’s highest Force skill in use.
Required Powers: Affect mind, dim another’s senses, sense Force
Effect: If this power is successfully activated, it allows the Jedi to select a single opponent and bring down any Force powers the target currently has up. The target may attempt to activate their Force powers the following round with no special penalties. This power does not affect Force powers such as Force lightning, or bolt of hatred that have a single, instantaneous effect.
Example: Ambelled Daru finds himself in combat with the Sith Lord, Darth Arius. Darth Arius is currently keeping lightsaber combat and control pain up. Ambelled makes his sense roll and gets a 14, making the difficulty. The gamemaster picks an alter difficulty of 7. Darth Arius has control 3D, sense 4D and alter 5D. His highest Force skill currently in use is sense, so he rolls it and receives a 10. The alter difficulty is now a 17. Ambelled makes his alter roll and receives an 18. Darth Arius now drops his lightsaber combat and control pain. Though he may attempt to activate them again next round.
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After some play testing I'd like to know when it says "highest Force skill in use," is that before or after multiple action penalties.
Realistically any Jedi facing off with anyone is going to have lightsaber combat up. If he drops it to try to activate this power he's either stupid or suicidally insane. So, to use Force Breach is another two actions. So, you're probably using four action in the round. If the other guy is just resisting with, say, his control, it's a shoe in that the power is going to fail. Bring control -2D (for the target's lightsaber combat MAPs) then it's a more even contest. He's still got a fair chance of resisting without making the power way too easy to emasculate a Sith in combat.
What do you think? |
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Gry Sarth
Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:48 am Post subject: |
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Ok, so what you're basically saying is that as it is this power is too difficult to use sucessfully, right? But the thing is, it's only difficult to activate if you already have some powers up. If we apply the MAP to the target's resisting roll, then things get more balanced. But then what I fear is that if you use this power without any other powers up, if it's your single action in that round, and your opponent's resisting roll suffers from the MAPs of the powers he's necessarily keeping up, then it will most likely be a piece of cake to breach his powers, won't it?
Guys, I'd like some opinions on which way to go with Battle Meditation.
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cheshire
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| Gry Sarth wrote: | Ok, so what you're basically saying is that as it is this power is too difficult to use sucessfully, right? But the thing is, it's only difficult to activate if you already have some powers up. If we apply the MAP to the target's resisting roll, then things get more balanced. But then what I fear is that if you use this power without any other powers up, if it's your single action in that round, and your opponent's resisting roll suffers from the MAPs of the powers he's necessarily keeping up, then it will most likely be a piece of cake to breach his powers, won't it?
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I'll run it through with my player's character sheets when the one doesn't have LSC (lightsaber combat) up. My guess is that if the character fails to bring up the power, then he's going to be cloven in twain the next round.
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Guys, I'd like some opinions on which way to go with Battle Meditation. |
I suggest that you just drop the example. Excluding something that's unclear or flawed is one thing, but tweaking an example from a published work seems to be quite another. |
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Gry Sarth
Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | I'll run it through with my player's character sheets when the one doesn't have LSC (lightsaber combat) up. My guess is that if the character fails to bring up the power, then he's going to be cloven in twain the next round. |
I don't know, there are many situations in which it would be very useful to use Force Breach that don't involve a direct sabre combat. Come to think of it this doesn't feel like a power someone would use in the heat of combat (unless he's very powerful). It feels like something you would in a lull in the combat, when the opponents are separated for some reason for a brief moment.
| cheshire wrote: | | I suggest that you just drop the example. Excluding something that's unclear or flawed is one thing, but tweaking an example from a published work seems to be quite another. |
I don't know. If the published work is obviously mistaken, then why not correct it? This power is tricky enough that it certainly requires an Example to ensure understanding. I think we should correct the example, probably changing the character to someone else who has more than 4D in his Force skills.
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cheshire
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:45 am Post subject: |
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Force Breach
I'll run it through with a few different combinations of characters and see what we come up with. The only other feedback from my group was that if it wasn't a matter of trying to make the power even, then the target's control roll should be used to resist. That may eventually be the direction we might go. Their reasoning was that almost the whole of WEG's powers use control to resist. Furthermore, the use of a control to resist is just straight up simpler. You don't have to keep in check which powers were in use and which was the highest. Unless there was a specific game balance reason, i.e., making it easier or harder to defeat the target's roll, then the control roll should be used.
Just as a note, I didn't participate in the discussion with the group, but just listened to feedback. I'm still waiting for another meeting to hear some feedback on some more powers. We got about as far as Force Breach and Disable droid.
Taking their comments into consideration, perhaps there might be a game balance reson to keep it as the highest skill in use. But, I'll run the numbers 20 different ways tonight with some player character sheets. (They were always good enough to run off photocopies for the GM and leave them at my house in case they ever forgot theirs.)
Battle Meditation
I suppose there wouldn't be any harm in changing the name of the Jedi, and then increasing one of the Force skills to 4D. The example would work if we did that, right? |
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Gry Sarth
Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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Here's my suggestion for the tweak in the Battle Meditation example:
| Quote: | | Example: Jedi Master Thon and three of his Jedi Knight companions are battling a dozen Sith minions – followers of Freedon Nadd. Seeing the tide of the engagement turning in the dark siders’ favor, Thon decides to use his battle meditation power to help his allies overcome their enemies. Since he has control 10D+2, sense 12D+1, and alter 11D+2, he may increase one attribute of all of his companions (he chooses Dexterity in this case) by 3D (1D for every 4D in his highest Force skill: sense), and decrease one attribute of that of his opponents by 3D (he chooses Strength), to a minimum of 1D, until he drops the power. While Thom continues to maintain the power, his allies all have a 3D bonus to Dexterity (and all of its skills) and his enemies all have a 3D penalty to Strength (and all of its skills). |
And here's a first stab at the Burst of Speed revision:
| Quote: | Burst of Speed
Source: Revised Core Rulebook, page 107.
Control Difficulty: Moderate
Required Powers: Enhance attribute
Effect: A Jedi can use this power to enhance his Move rating, increasing his running and walking speeds dramatically for a short period of time. The added speed also increases the distance the Jedi can jump while the power is in effect. Both the duration and Move increase are determined by the amount the Jedi’s control roll exceeds the difficulty. The duration can be increased by spending character points – for each character point spent, the duration is increased by one round. These points can be spent at any time before the power fades.
Control Roll > --- Move/Jump
Difficulty By: ----- Increase ---- Duration
0-8 ---------------- x2 / x2 ------ 5 rounds
9-20 --------------- x5 / x3 ------ 2 rounds
21+ ---------------- x10 / x5 ---- 1 round |
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Gry Sarth
Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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Rasputiza, your comments are very valid, however you're talking about official WEG powers, and I believe we here in this project are not really considering changing or expanding the official powers as they were written. We're only tweaking our own home-made powers and d20 conversions, which are all powers tat were never covered by the official WEG material. The only tweak we're doing to official powers is the above correction to the Battle Meditation example, and that's just because there's a clear contradiction in the power which needs to be ironed out, we're not changing the power itself (as much as I think it deserves a little tweak).
Absorb/Dissipate Energy was written way before the PT, and so it obviously doesn't reflect some of the effects seen in Ep2 and 3. The whole lightsaber thing seems quite weird to me. How neither Anakin nor Yoda ever consider using it to absorb the lightning, and Obi-Wan has a very easy time doing it while Mace has to struggle with it.
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Hieh
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Joined: 02 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, If you're using the Thawn Trillogy sourcebook rules for Force Lightning, it makes a little sense, since they have to beat the users roll with a control roll, and that's harder to do if you're keeping lightsaber combat up, especially when the people throwing Force Lightning around are very experienced masters. |
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Hieh
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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Plus, from a movie point of view, Obi Wan was a lot farther away than Mace when he had to block it, which gives a little time to get the saber in position.
And Dooku was only using one hand, and his visually looked a lot weaker than good old Palpy. |
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Rasputiza
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 107
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:13 am Post subject: |
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Gry: i understand your point about Instinctive astrogation and i agree.
Regarding Abosrb/dissipate Enrgy, i have some issues though.
I mean, i tend to consider the SW films as canon before everything else.
Since the first three episodes clearly pose a problem about defense against Force Lightening, imho we should deal this issue and include what we now know being Lucas vision of the power.
I propose this kind of dealing (take it as guidelines, not as a definitive and precise opinion: i don't have heroes and villains stats with me now):
a)Up to 4D it's used as it is now (example: Dart Vader absorbing Han's shot in EP V)
b)Starting from 5D it can be used with the lightsaber do dissipate lightining force attacks (Mace Windu and Obi Wan)
c)from 6D to 7D no lightsaber is required (Joda in EP III)
d)from 8D onwards you can repel the attack back with half his strength (Joda in EP II)
All die codes need to be adjusted to the actual die codes of the characters we saw using this skill (i.e. Obi Wan, Mace Windu, Joda...)
An alternate dealing with c) and d) could be that you are rolling against Force Lightening and depending on the result you can be able to dissipate the attck only or repel it back with half of its strength. This way c) and d) could be summarized into:
c) (bis) Starting from [die code here] you roll against the attack and if you roll more than [put result here] over the attack roll you repel the attack back at half strength. Otherwise the effects are as in b)
Now that i think about it, i suppose that option c) (bis) could summarize all four options: depending on the roll you may even be unable to dissipate a Force Lightning at all. This could explain why a maimed Mace Windu (i suppose he is treated as wounded or even worse, hence having a - nD malus) wasn't able to react to the final strike from Palpy.
What do you think about it?
Ras |
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cheshire
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:02 am Post subject: |
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Absorb/Dissipate Energy
I don't know Ras. It sounds like you have some interesting ideas, but I'm not sure that something that Lucas cooked up for a prequil really trumps a set of balanced mechanics. We can sort of patch things up with a new Redirect Energy. But we can justify Mace's problem by saying he rolled really poorly particularly after being wounded and the Emperor rolled really well.
The whole blocking Force Lightning with a lightsaber is not something I really want to tackle in a Force Power. You can work that out with other mechanics.
I'm just not sure it's prudent to be putting together a book of official Force Powers and go back and change the official Force Powers. House rules have always existed, and this seems like a good place for you to make one.
Force Breach
Okay, I rolled the dice dozens of times. Assume that the Force users are of relatively equal strength. If you put in MAP to resist, and the user has no other MAPs then the target is dead. Plain and simple.
If we do Easy + Target's Control (or other Force skill roll) then there is hardly any chance of success with characters with skills around 6D (and assuming that the user has no other powers up). The chances become somewhat greater if you can just beat the target's Control roll.
At an 8D level, occasionally the user will win over the target if they roll a 6 on the wild die.
At the 10D level, I got the user to win after nine failuers, five more failures, 12 more failures, and then 14 failures. Though had more of a chance of success if he was just trying to beat the Control roll.
It's a good idea to change the difficulty from Easy + Control roll to the target's opposed control roll. The defender still succeeds more often than not because of the user's MAPs, though the user still has a reasonable chance of getting the power to work and must also assume the risk of dropping his LSC. |
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cheshire
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| Okay, I've been thinking of Kit Fisto's power. Here's my deal, if we do this, it causes damage. That's generally a WEG no-no. So, do we say that you can use it to cause damage to non-sentient or non-living targets? Or should we scrap the whole idea altogether. I'm more than willing to draw it up, but even if we do this, we have to recognize that this is a niche power. It's for Jedi fighting non-sentient beings underwater. Has that ever come up in one of your campaigns? |
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PsiberDragon
Commander
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:24 am Post subject: |
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My quick thought: it's a specialized form of TK or Force Wave or the like... and let it pass at that.
It is because it is SUCH a niche power that I'd use that ruling...
again, just my 2 centicreds...
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Gry Sarth
Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:16 am Post subject: |
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I don't know. I mean, I dispise the Clone Wars 1st season so much that I wouldn't mind letting this power slip. But I see that some people might like to have it. I'd say to look at powers like "Bolt of Hatred" and see what can be used to make a light-side version of it. As for the whole "hurting sentients", I'd just put in a line that if a sentient (or should that be living?) being is killed as a consequence of this power, no matter the circumstances, the user gets a DSP. Making this a machine-only power feels very strange...
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cheshire
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:51 am Post subject: |
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I hear you about not being too thrilled about the Clone Wars cartoon. I wouldn't mind letting it go either. So, in the interest of the fans of the toon why don't we give it a shot and if it looks like it's going to be an ordeal, then we just leave it be?
I think I can tweak the description a bit saying something to the effect that the power was originally invented to clear out debris from underwater lava tubes or sub-surface caves, though it came in useful during battles against he droid armies of the Separatists. The idea that it can be used to muscle your way through a blast door or something adds some level of usefulness to the power.
My only deal is that it was pretty powerful. It took out one of the Federation tanks! Are we looking at walker scale damage if you roll Heroic or something like that?
Just a thought. |
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