Initiative, Action Declerations and Combat round

[Raiz]

Let me introduce you our combat system. And please add your comments both positive and negative. At first this sounded perfect to me but while playing I see there exist some problems with it but I cannot very well name them.

1) Roll Perception (including the npc's)
2) Everybody starts declaring starting from the lowest perception roll (thus the higher perception knows exactly what the lowers will do and declare his actions according to this insight)
3) After everybody declares people independently declares if they will take a "Haste" action or not.

Haste Action: Everybody can take one or more haste action after the decleration phaze. This enables a lower perception roll to overcome a higher roll in cost of using one action. Each haste counts as 1 action and makes you lose 1D from each action you take(just like an action). If a character uses haste and all the others do not, then the hasted character starts whatever the perception rolls are. If 2 characters are hasted then the one with higher perception roll starts as usual. It is all the same while taking more then 1 haste. An ambushing(surprise) character or party starts with 2 free haste without recieving action penalties.

4) Characters make actions starting from the highest initiative.
5) All actions in a round are made with a (#ofactions-1)D penalty.
Ex: Player1 takes 1 haste and makes 2 attacks with his blaster (6D) against his opponent = Both shots are made with 4D (2D penalty for 3 actions)
Ex2: Player2 also takes 1 haste, is dodging(6D) and makes 1 attack(5D) against his opponent = again 2D penalty for 3 actions, character dodges with 4D and attacks with 3D.

Facts:

Positive:
- Haste action makes the characters able to avoid ambush - at least have a chance to dodge - (with a penalty of at least 2D to both actions) or act supreme fast in necessary circumstances.
- Higher perception enables you to understand the opponent actions and gives the opportunity to make better action declerations.
- Making more then 3-4 actions in a round is extremely hard and not very logical because of the penalties.

Negative:
- Lower perception characters have great combat difficulties since their opponent knows every action they will make.

[Phalanks Balas]

I think you descibe SW companion rules

[Rerun941]

My old GM used to use a similar system.

I posted it a couple of years ago...

http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=420
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Han - "How're we doin'?"
Luke - "Same as always."
Han - "That bad, huh?"

[Esjs]

Don't forget Step 0!

0) Declare use of a Force Point, if desired.

You declare a use of a Force Point before the round begins so that all of your rolls (except damage that isn't attribute based) are doubled. This includes doubling your Perception for initiative.


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"WHERE ARE THE CHEETOS?"

"Esjs" == "Jess"

[Jedi Skyler]

Use the Force, Luke!

[Grimace]

While the idea of Haste Actions isn't bad, I think it may be a bit offsetting. What is the point of allowing the characters a quick and easy way to get out of being ambushed? In the case of an ambush, those being ambushed should be "ambushed" for at least one round. It doesn't matter how good you are, a proper ambush means getting the surprise jump on those you're ambushing. After that first round, though, then you have to hope you can keep the initiative, otherwise those ambushed may turn the tables.

Also, I'm of the belief that if the players can do it, the NPCs should have the same ability to do it. So if the players can choose to Haste Action, the NPCs should also be allowed to. Thus, you're essentially back to where you started. If you don't allow the NPCs the same ability, then you risk upsetting the balance mechanics of the game. It would be like saying the PCs roll resistance against shots and NPCs don't...it can turn the game into a powergame fest and provide no real challenge to the players.

The rest of the positives and negatives are simple facts of everyday occurence. If a person is more skilled than another, more obervant than another, and in a fight with the lesser person, there is a much greater chance of the more skilled, more observant person being able to respond to the lesser person's attacks and make fortuitous attacks that the lesser person cannot defend against. That's the way combat goes.

[Jedi Skyler]

I agree with Grimace about letting the ambushers choose to Haste as well. It simply makes for a more lifelike game.

Plus, it also allows a greater chance for the attackers to flub up, since they'll ALSO be taking multiple actions...

Ya gotta look for the silver lining!

[Phalanks Balas]

I have missed the ambush part I use to play with surprise rule :
if a character or group of characters want to ambush a target (attack by surprise) roll hide/sneak of the attacker versus defender's perseption or search (if it is actively looking for a trap) skill. Of course GM can give bonus/malus depending of the situation.
If the attacker win, defender can't dodge or parry the attack on the first round.
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Phalanks

A day you will be facing the guns of the Black Pearl. You will know what means damned pirates !

[Tahlorn]

I too agree with Grimace.

The Haste rule means that ambushes are pointless, and jsut means that ambushing will cost them an action, and if the NPCs declare the same, then you are at square one. I can see that a haste action would make sense if perhaps it was your only action allowed, but the point is to get the jump on someone; thus, the highest initiative character just has to declare a haste action, and they do not ahve to worry at all about losing initiative. "I declare a haste!" "Well, so do I!" "Me too!" Doesn't make much sense logically, as a hasty action shouldn't be stopped by another hasty action.

Plus, for wanting a defense agaisnt ambushes, jsut give the ambushed folks a penalty to their dodge, and then roll everyone's intiative for the first real round of combat. Otherwise sounds like the GM is fairly flimsy and afraid to hurt the PCs.

[Raiz]

I think there is one little point missed here, say it is my fault not to detail the subject. This haste rule in ambush just makes you more than a sitting duck. An ambush means an invisible character attacking, a hiding character attacking and when you see(or sense) the attack at the last second. If you dont even see(or sense) the attack (perception or search) you of course dont have the chance to react. This is why in most circumstances this action can only be made by jedi characters. Even most of them are not able to well react it only true masters can.

For example: Characters are walking through a valley and at the moment of ambush a jedi successfully sensed a threat or another character successfully saw the blaster rifle firing. Just to get into initiative they have a 2D penalty. If their perception roll is less then the ambushing attacker they have 1 more D penalty. Assume characters have 5D dodge, they will dodge with 2D or 3D and that will make them just 1 step more than a sitting duck.

Assume the jedi has nuts and try to activate ctrl/sense and try to block the shot with lightsabre this means 2D ambush, 2D lightsabre combat and a 1D+ if he has lower perception in the initiative. Wh,ich means he has no chance to even open lighsabre combat if he has not got 7D+ crtl and sense.

But a true master jedi with 11D ctrl+ sense + lightsabre skill has a chance to even reflect that attack back to the attacker (!)

And as last word these are options. Everybody is free to decide weather to use and do not use them. We are just disgussing here

And this haste rule is not for the PC's, the strong NPC characters can also use it for sure. (I think this was the last word in fact )

[Akari]

One question: How do you incorporate Combat Sense into that design?

[Raiz]

Hey, just a poor wook here not the jedi, not the GM

If the combat sense is a jedi power enabling the jedi sense the ambush, it can eliminate the +2 free haste the attackers will have.

[Akari]

No, that would be danger sense... meaning you need to announce a round early that you want to attack. Otherwise you can't. Pretty nasty when you want to snipe him and he just lazily walks away into cover before youre even ready to fire.

Combat sense according to the regular rules allows you to automatically win initiative. I.e. you don't need to roll at all (You also get +2d to attack and +2d to defend, but that doesnt count for initiative determination). Unless your enemy is a jedi with combat sense as well, in which case you determine initiative normally.

[Phalanks Balas]

You can use combat sense only if you have identified an enemy (it's a effect versus target like power). Activing this power require one round thus trying to activate this power in the first round of an ambush, assuming the FS character is the target, don't allow automatic initiative nor combat bonus.
Kept up danger sense change completely the situation because jedi senses the ambush one full round before the first shoot thus he can prepare himself and/or inform the other members of the group of incoming trouble.

Hasted action and combat sense rule seems to not match. Can a character win initiative by using hasted action ? I think no, but the discussion is still open
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Phalanks

A day you will be facing the guns of the Black Pearl. You will know what means damned pirates !