Giving a DSP for killing a helpless being?

[Robert]

I need your help in a decision. One of my players is force-sensitive. They were on search for a wise man, being 6 days late from his regular meditations in a cave in the swamplands. They got help from a hunter in hunt for one of the great (60ft) wyrm living in this swampland. He said he knows a hillside where caves are, and would fetch them there if they help him hunting this wyrm as his lat huntig party was heavily wounded. The characters agreed, as the planet was dangerous and usually cloudy and it would be hard to find something on their own. The wise man was necessary, as the group had a force relic which they were told by its former owners spirit to fetch to this man to prevent it from falling into the hands of an imperial inquisitor.

During their first night a wyrm attacked. One of the characters jumped upon the wyrm, armed with his vibro-knife, using a forcepoint and wounding him. Later, the force-sensitive character jumped onto the wyrm. The wyrm got hit by several shots of other characters and decided to retreat. The fs-character kept tight on him, using a force-point, declaring 12 actions. He was a good brawler and beat him into unconsciousness. But that wasn´t enough. He kept on kicking the wyrm with his remaining 9 attacks until he was sure he´s dead.

They later found the wise men and rescued him (another story)

I decided neither of the players gets his forcepoint back. I think you would have ruled the same, wouldn´t you?. But i and some of my players wonder if the fs-character should get a DSP, too, for killing a helpless being.Of course they could have tried finding the wise men without the help of the hunter and the necessity to kill a being, but would probably have needed longer.

The question summarized is: Should i give out a DSP for killing a helpless, retreating being, although it was killed to better the chances to rescue some other being to prevent the progress of the dark side?
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"We don't stop playing because we grow old...we grow old because we stop playing." G.B. Shaw

[Gry Sarth]

I say let him go with a warning. His character was too reckless, too obstinated on the kill. Even though it might be a justified kill, it seems to me he got too caught up in the excitement of the moment, which is not very Jedi-like. However it's not enough to warrant a DSP.

Definetly do not return the spent FP.
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"He's Gry Sarth, of course he has the stats for them."

[Jedi Skyler]

I agree with Gry. Definitely do not return the Force Points.

While the FS character is technically not a Jedi yet (I assume), since he's FS and could become a Jedi down the road, he needs to learn now that one only kills when all other means have failed. A Jedi is supposed to take it VERY seriously when the need to kill arises, because they were unable to reach a peaceful solution. This character did not; rather, he became WAY too abandoned to the kill.

Granted, he wanted to make SURE the wyrm was no longer a threat to the party; but what other methods could he have used? Certainly there had to be some alternatives.

If the party has not yet met the wise man, it would be very within your rights (let alone the spirit of the campaign) for this mystic to pull the FS character aside, telling him how he witnessed this act of aggression through the Force, and to warn him away from that kind of action.

Fear, anger, aggression. A path to the dark side, are they.

[Chabit Rane]

I'm with Gry & Skyler on this as well.

[gbjazzman]

I'm in agreement with the others. I think giving a DSP for this would have been a tad overkill, not returning the FPs was perfectly acceptable.

[garhkal]

I disagree, DSP all the way. He willfully spent the FP after the wyrm was out, kicking and hitting him till (in his word) he was dead... that is to my opinion way overkill...

[Sandokiri]

[Jedi Skyler]

You could also consider this:

Is the wyrm a sentient being? If not, and especially if the characters have never dealt with one before, then the only way they'd know FOR SURE if the wyrm was fleeing was if you, as GM, specifically told them. For all the characters know, this is standard operating procedure for a wyrm that's determined to make the kill, but knows it's outclassed. It would have to regroup and try a different tactic. Perhaps the wyrm is capable of burrowing, and is attempting to get away long enough to begin a tunnel...

Anyway, you asked for opinions. They're like armpits; everyone has some, and a lot of them stink!

[Robert]

[garhkal]

I would agree the vibro knife guy does not deserve one, but i am not sure if he warrents his FP back. I don't really see how this was heroic..
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[Phalanks Balas]

Well Robert,
Let have a look to the rules

On chapter 3 (Gamemaster section), there is an explanation of how get force point back. There are 4 points :
Doing evil, being unheroic, be heroic and be heroic at the dramatically appropriate moment.
One of the exemples given for doing evil is "Killing except self defense or the defense of other".
Using a Force point in an attempt to defeat a dangerous wyrm in order to protect the other members of the group is of course an heroic action BUT the way of being heroic is as important as the purpose...
Using the Force to defeat the wyrm doesn't means kill. More of that to take the descision of keeping hitting an unconsciousness target is definitively an evil action. The character has clearly failed on the temptation of the dark side which pushed the fs-character on slaying the knocked out wyrm. The character had the opportunity to avoid to kill, but he didn't follow this way. "That wasn't enough"(temptation from dark side) He decided to continue until he was sure the wrym dead !

So, for the character who attaqued the wyrm with a vibro-knife : give him back is force point at the end (except if he shows a real will of slaying => temptation of dark side) and for the fs-character : he looses his force point and gain a DSP. Next time, pay attention to warn this player of the concequences of the actions of his character if he continues in this way the dark side will have him...
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Phalanks

A day you will be facing the guns of the Black Pearl. You will know what means damned pirates !

[Neo-Paladin]

Eh, hunting seems like more of a morally neutral action. I've always assumed the killing the rule book refers to is the killing of a sentient, else eating meat is of the Dark Side. His method of dispatch might have been more... brutal than a clean blaster shot, but now we're getting into a gray moral area. Did he intend to torture the wyrm or just kill it? Proving intent can be difficult at best.

Something else to consider that might make my post above moot: while normally I ignore the rule that requires the GM to give the player warning that their action will incur a DSP, something like this is pretty subjective to be passing out DSP's on. If you didn't give warning at the time, I'd say it would be the wrong choice to give retroactive DSP.

Granted, the use of a Force Point was superfluous, but that was the player's call to make, and the player's point to lose.
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Science is organized knowldge, wisdom is organized life
-Kant

[garhkal]

Well, still hitting an already unconsious or otherwise helpless target is imo willful evil. That fact is compounded by the fact he is on a force point.
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[Maximilian Bernas]

The Force Point was spent before the creature was dead, but after the GM decided it was to retreat.

How many of you would know when a bear is retreating or just circling out to try a new attack?

Precisely. Unless your Force-sensitive character is competent with beast speech or some other Sense-related skill, he would not know that the creature was leaving the engagement.

However, the Force Point was not used at a dramatically appropriate moment, and not during the time that he/she and/or the party was in mortal danger. Ergo, no Force Point is returned.

This skirts the issue of the Force-sensitive character's actions, which I think are suspect, but not inherently evil.

But, what I want to know is, 12 actions? With the expenditure of a Force Point? You wanna run that one by me?
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"Let your anger be like a monkey in a pinata"
- Master Tang

[garhkal]

Well, it also says that you can get a DSP for willful unneccessary gratuous injury. Kicking a downed and unconsious animal (this wyrm) until he is dead, imo definatly hits that point..
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!