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The Brain
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 242
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 Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| Jedi Skyler wrote: | | Well, you're right about Luke being the only real threat to Palpatine- but that's because Lucas wrote it that way, and that's only if you're playing a game where the timeline is sacred, movie events are sacred, and are unchangeable. If you're playing an Infinities campaign, anything goes. |
Of course when you think about it say Luke wasn't at Endor but Palpatine is still is there to bait the trap to lure out the Alliance, well the shield gets knocked out and the DS destroyed without a "chosen one" in sight. Makes you wonder don't it? By the way in that scenario Palpy's that thought was "@%$@! one on my sense wild die!!" |
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KageRyu
Commodore
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 1391
Location: Lost in the cracks
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| scott2978 wrote: |
1. Yoda being the wisest and oldest jedi master, and having 25 years to think about it, is CERTAIN that there are no other jedi. |
As was pointed out numerous times, Yoda was certain about a lot of things...He was wrong about those too.
| Quote: | | 2. Obi Wan is no longer restricted by the need to travel in a spaceship, or even to be a corporeal being. He can go wherever he wants at any time. Obi Wan is also CERTAIN that there are no other jedi besides Luke. He can be a completely invisible scout for Yoda, and he is (presumably)completely immune to Darth Vader and the Emperor. So if Yoda in his 25 years of thinking about the fate of the universe had even the slightest clue of any other jedi, Obi could find out. Since they are both convinced there are no jedi... |
Yet, Obi wan is unable to provide any form of inteligence or information whatsoever...perhaps because he is bound to people or places he knows, or who are strong with the force. Even being an invisible scout, he would first need to know where to look for any surviving Jedi before he could verify whether or not there are any. Given these concepts, I would say he, too, could not be certain of anything, it is merely as far as Obi Wan knows.
| Quote: | | 3. Annakin and the clones went on a massive jedi-hunt. They had the complete jedi council records to list for them every jedi, padawan and master known to exist. If any jedi were still left alive, they would know because the name wouldn't be "crossed off the list" yet. |
Knowing WHO they are, and knowing WHERE they are, are two different things. Then there are the Jedi trained DURING the hunt...the ones not on those lists...they didn't exist when the lists were made. We know Vader was still charged with finding rogue Jedi, we do not know how many escaped, it is never revealed in fact, only speculated.
| Quote: | | 4. While Yoda may be hindered by the force masking properties of Dagobah, the Emperor has no such hindrance. If the Emperor seems certain that there are no jedi, then there must not be any. |
But the emperor has an entire empire to oversee. Then there is his own arrogance. Distances involved. Jedi keeping low key. Really, all of these possibilities were already covered in points and counterpoints...I see nothing new yet for me to consider. I do not feel like repeating everything already posted...let me skip to something I may have not answered yet...
| Quote: | 5. (admittedly this is a technicality, but it's 100% proof that there are no "jedi" during the rebellion period).
By strict definition, Obi Wan was no longer a jedi at the time he met Luke, and he says so himself. For any jedi to technically be a "jedi" they must follow the jedi code unwaveringly. Doing so would immediately alert the Emperor and Darth Vader to one's presence however, as wrongs in the galaxy (such as the existance of Darth Vader and the Emperor and the Empire) must be made right, and the jedi code leaves no room for personal luxuries such as hermetic exile in times of great need. If any former jedi are still left, they are by definition no longer considered jedi. Remember - "Jedi" is a title, not an ability or power. Someone merely using the force is not a jedi. I believe this is the reason that Luke was not considered a true jedi until he attempted to face Darth Vader -to make the wrong things right as the jedi code demands- and having done so he became a true jedi, the only one in the galaxy. |
ok, this wasn't exactly covered, but this is really just mincing words and semantics... we can do better can't we?
| Quote: | | Now, I see all this as compelling evidence that there are no jedi during the rebellion. But, I also really love the idea of alternate realities in Star Wars. What if Obi had finished Annakin off on Mustafar? What if Owen and Beru hadn't been killed? What if Luke WANTED to be a moisture farmer? I think there is room in alternate realities for "What if not all the jedi were slain?" But this belongs with the alternate realities not the official one, in my own opinion. |
I missed all this compelling evidence I guess, as I already provided valid arguments to the contrary of all of it. Maybe had you read the whole thread... As far as official realities...
We know that Jedi survived the purge, as they have popped up in official sources.
That is, by far, the most compelling evidence.
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"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra |
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Ejacobs
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 183
Location: Afghanistan...Again
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:24 am Post subject: |
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I guess I missed the part of the Jedi Code that says "You will right all wrongs in the galaxy, even at the expense of your own life because darnit, that's what Jedi do. Good luck on your next suicide mission." Not to sound too sarcastic, the Jedi were not created to be a law enforcement bureau. The formation of the knights was to counter specific threats and act as negotiaters amongst warring factions.
Vis-a-vis: Entirely possible for Jedi to exist during the Rebellion. Lucas is not infallible and only focused on the main characters of his Universe, not the supporting staff.
E |
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| The Brain wrote: | | Jedi Skyler wrote: | | Well, you're right about Luke being the only real threat to Palpatine- but that's because Lucas wrote it that way, and that's only if you're playing a game where the timeline is sacred, movie events are sacred, and are unchangeable. If you're playing an Infinities campaign, anything goes. |
Of course when you think about it say Luke wasn't at Endor but Palpatine is still is there to bait the trap to lure out the Alliance, well the shield gets knocked out and the DS destroyed without a "chosen one" in sight. Makes you wonder don't it? By the way in that scenario Palpy's that thought was "@%$@! one on my sense wild die!!" |
LOL!!! |
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:23 am Post subject: |
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Excellent rebuttals, Kage! Also a good point about the Jedi Code, E!
Because even if you only take the movies as canon, they leave open the possibility that other Jedi survived- that fixing of the beacon that Obi Wan perpetrated is the loophole that allows the possibility of Jedi (or their decendents) existing during the Rebellion. And if you accept the novels and all the EU material as canon as well, then there are ample cases where people with Force powers existed during and survived the Empire.
And even if you DON'T, I'd go out on a limb and say that all of us accept just about all (if NOT all) of the WEG materials as canon. That being the case, there are templates for the Alien Student of the Force, Failed Jedi, Quixotic Jedi, Young Jedi, Minor Jedi; all of these character types exist during the Empire. If that doesn't get it for ya, then I guess nothng else will... |
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Vartax
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Posts: 203
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| Plus Vader had 18 years to hunt down any viable threats to the empire. I read in the WAnted by Cracken about a dark jedi that when descovered was left alone due to the fact that he faced no real threat, even though he was 5d-6d level in force skills. The most important facter for any game is you can have as many jedi as you want. 1 per 100,000 or 1 per million or 1 per planet, or one per system. And even then you can decided if you have the main story line happening in the back ground, if the pcs are in the middle of it, or if it even happens. With any game I'll gm it will be there in the background, unless they go rebel in which case who knows? |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14172
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 4:31 am Post subject: |
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| Vartax wrote: | | Plus Vader had 18 years to hunt down any viable threats to the empire. I read in the WAnted by Cracken about a dark jedi that when descovered was left alone due to the fact that he faced no real threat, even though he was 5d-6d level in force skills. The most important facter for any game is you can have as many jedi as you want. 1 per 100,000 or 1 per million or 1 per planet, or one per system. And even then you can decided if you have the main story line happening in the back ground, if the pcs are in the middle of it, or if it even happens. With any game I'll gm it will be there in the background, unless they go rebel in which case who knows? |
I do remember, reading somewhere, that the emperor and vader willing left some dark side tainted force users, especially some that were crazy, alone. So as to cause 'hate and discontent'...
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TarlSS
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:39 am Post subject: |
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And then there are Dark Jedi like Jerec, who would have betrayed the order and joined the Empire. It's conceivable a Jedi Master may have joined the Empire in order to 'keep the flame of the Jedi alive in darkness' and then become corrupt.
My character's primary Jedi Master is one such, a Bothan who's motive is to secretly teach new padawans to defeat the empire. Of course, Palpatine finds this all very amusing, as he uses her and her students to do his most heinious deeds. |
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Vartax
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Posts: 203
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| What about lighter sabers and damage. On other forms here it was discussed that lightsabers cut through anything. Though the PC has energy protection with armour he is wearing, plus a dice so in all he has 3 armour versus energy. His complaint was that he should be allowed to have that count against lightsabers. What do you think? |
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Orgaloth
Vice Admiral
Joined: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 3754
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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Let it count, but the Light sabre can still cut it. I'd say that the damage is reflexed in how much it cuts through. If its a low damage, then it merely marks the armour (or the jedi wasn't as good at hitting). A higher damage and it's a warm knife through butter.
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"You know, sometimes I amaze even myself."
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14172
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:40 am Post subject: |
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Side question.. over on the holonet, some one was asking about the feasability of a secret cabal of imperial officers who worship the sith... and something to do with them knowing about vader and palpy being sith....
Do you think anyone in the general populus would realise that vader is a sith, with his title of DARTH??
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| I'd imagine that no one among the general populace would know that. It's a part of Sith and Jedi lore, and something that wouldn't be publicized. The only ones that MIGHT know, IMO, would be leftover clone troopers who've aged well past their prime, but are still around. Don't know what their life expectancy is (without having been killed in battle) but it's theoretically possible that some might even still be in service. Those that were serving with Jedi before the purge MIGHT be aware that Darth Tyrannus (aka Count Dooku) was a Sith after hearing their Jedi generals talking about it. I wouldn't guess many others, if any, would have a clue. In fact, the general populace might even think "Darth" is Vader's first name, rather than a title. |
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scott2978
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Posts: 220
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Do you think anyone in the general populus would realise that vader is a sith, with his title of DARTH?? |
I don't think Vader used the title Darth in public, he was known as "Lord" Vader. Maybe I'm mistaken but only those who knew who he was, or were told by them, called him Darth. ie: Obi Wan called him Darth when telling Luke about his father during the clone wars, so Luke called him Darth too after that. But I think Leia called him Lord Vader when she was watching Alderran be destroyed. In fact I can't recall anyone but those in the circle of "in the know" people ever calling him Darth. Could be mistaken though.
In one game I ran early last year, the group actually met Vader. I enforced that none of the group may call him "Darth Vader" but must refer to him as "Lord Vader" instead since none of them were Jedi and in the press he is only referred to as "The Emperor's very close advisor and envoy, Lord Vader" and the characters would have no way of knowing his title of Darth. In fact 99.999999999% of the galaxy has no idea he is even a bad guy. Vader doesn't get much press coverage, but everything the media ever says about him is glowing and pristine. Even if you were in the Imperial forces you would probably never meet Vader. In fact, relative to the population of the SW galaxy, any given character has a better chance of being killed in a cheese grater accident than of being in the same room with anyone who has ever been in the same room with Darth Vader.
But that's my game, and while I certainly allow changes in the timeline, I tend to be a realist/purist. |
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boldulyses
Ensign
Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 33
Location: Northeast USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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I have to disagree... I was at a point a few years back where I could quote the ENTIRE trilogy by heart... I've since lapsed, but I'm fairly certain that when Leia was bounced before Vader on the Tantive IV, she said Darth Vader... Well, to legitimize her character as someone important, she took the more british route of "Dauth Vader, only you could be so bold. The Imperial Senate will not sit still for this..." blah blah blah.
Edit
Hmm... I suppose she could have said "Lord Vader, only you could be so bold..." Damn this psychosomatic Alzheimer's!
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"There comes a time in every man's life when he has to decide whether he wants to follow the path of the Jedi, or if he wants to be cool like Vader." -Unknown
My site sucks; check it out! I hope to improve it. |
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scott2978
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Posts: 220
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| I checked a copy of the script, and she does in fact say "Darth Vader". Perhaps she knew? She is part of the circle of in the know people after all. |
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