Should they succeed?

[Robert]

Well, opportunities was meant in a abstract way for many situations. According to your example, infiltratiin should go with some recherche by the players. Offer them knwoledge about those slicer sticks or contacts to the underworld. If they dont do anything, it is imho not the job of the GM to beg for some action. But maybe their employer shows up and kicks some butts. Or they learn securities will be tightened in some days. Te ideas should come from the players. As far as i try to play it, the GM gives obstacles, often an aim and sometimes help, mostly through npcs but a good map or other handouts also counts partially as help. The players play, the director builds the setting.

[Endwyn]

I believe that where there is a will, there is a way. Does that mean that every plan succeeds? No. But it does mean that ever character can try. For your computer slicing campaign.....

A techie group would set up a remote slice, lots of sophisticated tech to keep themselves out of harm's way.

A tactical group might survey the building for weeks, research building scematics, get intell, hire someone in as a janitor, and after collecting info might try to intercept a copy of the data in transit instead of remove it themselves if no techie was available. Even if the data was never in transit, they at least have some leg work done and know they need to go to a plan B.

A more "charismatic" and devious group might find sufficient blackmail to get someone on the inside to retrieve the information for them. After all, rebels are already "scum" and imperials with "dirty secrets" get knocked off to prevent the blackmail from being possible. A smart imperial knows that to admit he is blackmailable is bad and to double cross the rebels is equally dangerous....perhaps supplying them with the plans could be "less susspiscious".

A combat heavy group might sneak in and blast their way out.....perhaps blast both in and out......although smart imps start erasing everything one security lines get broken.....

The main point should be that the plot should not be a video game where the charaters only have one way to succeed - if your adventure requires computer Prg/rpr; that's cool.....but the PC's shouldn't have to break in and steal the data themselves. If the player make an honest effort at another approach you should steer them in a new direction: "Look man, I know a guy on the inside, but he don't got axcess to that level sh*t....besides if we get caught ain't nothin' in it for us." Perhaps the players bargain for a security code, company clothes, or something smaller to help them along the way.....but if it's impossible to do anything but one approach; you'd might as well play a video game.

(I am not saying that you or anyone else who posted is actually constricting anyone this much; but the topic in itself is a debate about control over plot possibilities; and therefore an introduction into railroading characters and adventures. I'm strongly about the idea of free will in a game and think that the players should have control over some direction the story takes. There's nothing wrong with setting major campaign goals - just let the players take their own road to get there. Like someone said before everyone should get the chance to try regardless of how improbable the chance of success.)
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out.

[garhkal]

Well said, though from practical experience, i do know that some situations can only be delt with one way...

[Jedi Skyler]

Boomer's right. "I know a guy who knows people who..." opens all SORTS of possibilities- both for whole campaigns and for success in individual missions.

[garhkal]

[Jedi Skyler]

Perhaps an NPC that the GM brings in, maybe someone who happens to overhear them in a cantina.

Maybe the PCs realize they're out of their depth, and go in search of someone to assist them. They might not be able to find a good slicer on their own, but if they dig enough they might find someone who will act as a broker- for a goodly sum, of course...

[Endwyn]

When you look for an inside guy to do X, the GM can use that NPC to let them know X is not a good plan by having the NPC be incapable of helping do X; with the right inflection - "Look man, I know a guy on the inside, but he don't got axcess to that level of sh*t....besides if we get caught ain't nothin' in it for us."

The inflection could make a difference in the players continuing to persue a futile plan or changing gears.

I guess I didn't make that clear.
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out.

[Boomer]

It was volar who said the thing about "I know a guy who knows a guy who..." thing.

As to Garkhal's real goal about the info. He made it clear that what he really wants to know is wether or not the tasks should be scaled towards the character's abilities.

Yes, they should. And in this situation the task is still well within the abilities they have. Despite not a single slicer among them, they have the ability to get someone else to do it.
Never just hand them anything. Let them pull it togethor themselves.

Let them blackmail. Let them find and hire the slicer. Let them set up the inside man. Let them do all the work and use their skills for it.
The task being beyond anyone of them making a skill roll followed by the GM saying "You got the number, job well done." does not mean the ultimate goal of cravking the databank and getting the info is inherently beyond them.

In a well designed campaign, all tasks set before the players are challenging, but never truly impossible.
_________________
My backpack has jets!
I'm Boba the Fett!
And I bounty hunt for Jabba Hutt,
to finance my 'vette!

[garhkal]

OK, boomer. twist time...

Say i did give them the chance to blackmail etc, or hire others, but either they missed on it (not noticed my hinting etc), or flubbed over actually doing that... should i still lower the end diff so they stand a good chance, or leave it as is??

Also, what if they are on a time schedule, where they don't have the time to scout for blackmail info, or hunt down a slicer?
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[Boomer]

First, if you chose the difficulty numbers right in the first place, there should be no need to change them. As already stated, and something you and I both agree, sometimes the players just fail. But that does not end the adventure, only spirals things off into brand new avenues of craziness for creative GMs.

Second, oooh, time table. Depending on the nature of why they must get the information in a certain amount of time, this can be either an advantage or disadvantage. But going with the intention that after a certain time passes the task is incompletable, we got ourselves a problem.

It would appear that with the time table making it impossible to set up anything fancy or get people with the proper skills, they should look for another task, since it has already been established none can do this with the skills they currently posess.
That or they should try something I havn't even thought of yet, and get my 20cp prize of extreme wowwing me.
_________________
My backpack has jets!
I'm Boba the Fett!
And I bounty hunt for Jabba Hutt,
to finance my 'vette!

[Jedi Skyler]

[garhkal]

[Grimace]

A rebel has every right to say "we ain't gonna do it, boss", especially if they feel they're being put into a situation where they stand absolutely no chance of achieving the objective.

Think about it, if the Rebel Command was smart, they wouldn't pick people who have no skill in the areas that they need in order to obtain the information that Command is looking for. Sending in people who can't do the job because they aren't skilled enough to do it is exactly the same as not sending in anyone at all. Command would make a point of picking people who stand some chance of accomplishing the objective, otherwise they're just wasting resources....and Alliance Command has never really struck me as the "let's just throw more people at the problem" sort. They're short enough on people as it is, no need to squander them needlessly by sending them on suicide missions when they don't have the skills necessary to accomplish the mission.

Keep that in mind.

[Jedi Skyler]

In addition, the Alliance is chock full of individuals such as Han Solo and Wedge Antilles who are highly valued for their skills. People like these ALWAYS seem to be able to get away with telling their chain of command where to stick their orders. And then they go and get the mission done their OWN way.

Don't be mistaken; there are inept people in the Rebellion just as in the Empire. Heck, some of them might have even come FROM the Empire. Some individuals in power are only out for themselves, and the rank-and- file of the Rebel military knows who these individuals are. The military will follow their crummy orders some of the time, but not all of the time. There's enough people in the Rebellion who don't give a rip about political power, or the enemies that are made by disobeying cretins' orders.

And some of the best units around are made up of misfits and miscreants. Wraith Squadron is one such example (even though it's New Republic era, not Rebellion). Wedge formed them from applicants whose military records were quite tarnished, who were known for bucking the system, or being problems. Many of them were one slip-up from being drummed out of the service. And yet they were knitted into a highly successful, highly skilled group of infiltrators who could ALSO kick booty in a dogfight.

So don't be too hard on the ones who say, "Ain't gonna do it, boss." It's not always an attitude problem. Sometimes it's either common sense or long experience talking there.

[garhkal]

Then what happens to the gaming session/mission/module? Since they have said "stick it", they have no mission to go on, no chance to earn cp etc...