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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14171
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | While the Hutt would most certainly want death for these characters, that wouldn't necessarily be the first thing they'd want, nor would it necessarily be something they'd want to put on the characters anytime soon. Remember Jabba; he quite enjoyed having Han in carbonite; he had his prize alive, indefinitely, but in a position to do nothing but warn others of the folly of crossing him. This Hutt that your players were messing around with would have been very likely to extract a long, protracted revenge upon these usupers; messing with their bank accounts and criminal records would be the tip of the iceberg. The Hutt could employ a slicer (or a group of them) to cause some really serious havoc in their lives, toying with them for a long time before taking them out. Heck, you could have even diverted their attention away from the Hutt by giving them some off-planet assignments, only to have them encounter a slew of problems during the course of the adventure- all because they decided they had to play Billy Bad-@$$ with a Hutt, one of the most notoriously vengeful races in the known galaxy. You could have dragged the consequences of this out for a LOOOOOOOOONG time, possibly without them even knowing exactly why. They could've become well-known for the jinx that had been placed upon them, with beings the galaxy over snickering at them behind their backs. You could have really screwed with them for a while, making them begin jumping at shadows and wondering why all of a sudden the galaxy was out to get them.
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A lot of that, is assuming he wanted to draw out their torment. IMO with the fact they directly threatened his life, he would want revenge to be swift and immediate.
| Quote: | My characters will never die by a lucky Tie Fighter shot getting 16 over the character's roll sending their ship up in smoke...The characters aren't "extras"...so to speak. I will however, tell them to get to an escape pod a.s.a.p. because the ship is going to blow up.
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So what does happen if some schmuck gets high on the damage? Do you just flat out ignore it??? If so, then why bother rolling the dice?
| Quote: | | They wouldn't, but I think that the GM should remind them every so often to run certain skill checks. |
I disagree with that latter part. Why should the gm remind them what they should already be doing/know? YES In the beginning, he should tell them, OOC that when X happens, standard practice would eb to use skill(s) YDCOPLA and H... But just cause it seems like they are forgetting???
| Quote: | Of course...but not at the expense of killing characters over telling a good story. If a PC is going to die, at least them them die fighting...and at the hands of a worthy opponet...but stormtrooper 15481381 gettng a lucky blaster shot from behind is sooo bush-league. I'm not saying don't let the PC get hurt by stormtrooper 15481381, but I wouldn't let the character die no matter what was rolled.
This isn't a video game in my opinion, when a PC dies they don't come back (easily ) and use life number 2. They don't become video game dead, or soap opra dead...they become dead-dead. |
Not to sound harsh or anything, but not killing them just cause of telling a story, is IMO esactly like a video game, especially one with god mode enabled. And if all you are doing is telling a story, then why even have the enemies statted out??? Where is the need for dice???
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But is it the gms job to start the ball rolling? |
ALWAYS. Picture George Lucas as THE GM... If he hadn't had that scrolling text at the beginning of each film, you wouldn't know what the heck was going on. The GM is responsible for telling the details of the circumstances the characters find themselves in. This could be from telling them how they've come to meet to simply telling them, "Your ship is busy dodging and weaving turbolaser fire from an Imperial Customs Frigate. Your run from Kessel is in jeopardy of being cut short. Player 1 is piloting, Player 2 is co-pilot, Player 3's at the nav station and Players 4 and 5 are in the gun turrets. What do you do?" But as GM, you ALWAYS start things off.
| Quote: | | A lot of that, is assuming he wanted to draw out their torment. IMO with the fact they directly threatened his life, he would want revenge to be swift and immediate. |
Here you have to decide (or roll to discover) what his take is going to be, and what would fall under the purview of 'swift and immediate.' If the Hutt employs or can hire slicers to suddenly freeze the players' bank accounts, they're going to have problems acquiring supplies, fuel, or any number of items that require credits to get. That would be a 'swift and immediate' retribution that wouldn't kill them, would put a BIG crimp in their style, and ought to clue them into the fact that something's just not right. The Hutt could also have ordered a strike on their base of operations; sending in a demolition team to obliterate either their hangout or their homes (completely warranted since they violated his inner sanctum) would be a HUGE indicator that someone's out to get them, and that they mean business, all without simply killing them outright. Oh sure, the intent of the Hutt could be to straight up kill them, but as GM you don't necessarily have to completely support his plans. After all, you have the final say as GM.
| Quote: | | So what does happen if some schmuck gets high on the damage? Do you just flat out ignore it??? If so, then why bother rolling the dice? |
You roll the dice, if for no other reason, than to let the schmuck players know that there's a chance they could get tagged. You role the dice when you have to. Don't tell me that there's any real reason (other than perhaps intervention by the Force) that Luke Skywalker wasn't gunned down on the Death Star when he had at least 6 to 12 stormtroopers ALL firing at HIM, yet he walked without so much as a singed blonde lock. THAT'S what happens if some schmuck gets high on the damage. You don't have to ignore it; in this situation by ALL means, someone should have at least been seriously wounded and dragged off the battlefield by his buddies. But that could very well have served as THE wake-up call for the players, and at that point you, as GM, would have been well within your rights to have ANYONE come out of the underworld to talk to them... even if only to say, "Man! I can't believe you survived that! That Hutt slime hired those two guys to take you out, and they NEVER fail- even if it takes them twelve tries, they're gonna snuff your lights right out!" That approach would kinda serve also to build the characters' reputations as some tough cookies, so that if they'd survived the overall campaign, they'd be known as notoriously hard to kill, and that reputation would undoubtedly spread. This also would have been a great opportunity for you to tell these players, out of character, of some options they might want to explore at this point. Don't even cover them all- just one or two. Smart players always take this as DO IT NOW!!!! Stupid players end up as another carbon score on someone's sniper rifle. If you, as GM, have tried all of these ideas (or others, they're limitless) and they still don't heed your warnings, vape 'em. They have it coming. And be prepared to fight about it afterwards, but stick to your guns. If you've given them every opportunity to save their characters, site those examples and tell them to roll up new people, cuz you'll need them. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14171
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | ALWAYS. Picture George Lucas as THE GM... If he hadn't had that scrolling text at the beginning of each film, you wouldn't know what the heck was going on. The GM is responsible for telling the details of the circumstances the characters find themselves in. This could be from telling them how they've come to meet to simply telling them, "Your ship is busy dodging and weaving turbolaser fire from an Imperial Customs Frigate. Your run from Kessel is in jeopardy of being cut short. Player 1 is piloting, Player 2 is co-pilot, Player 3's at the nav station and Players 4 and 5 are in the gun turrets. What do you do?" But as GM, you ALWAYS start things off. |
Not what i was on about... i was more on about, is it the gms job to start the ball rolling to get them looking for those hints etc? Like say, having one of their contacts that has been 'absent' for a long time show up, then disappear again.... Most groups i know would take that as 'check with other contacts....
| Quote: | | Here you have to decide (or roll to discover) what his take is going to be, and what would fall under the purview of 'swift and immediate. |
Which i did, and what i ended up with was using the 2 snipers...He already went through lesser violent means, and all it did was get the party to upp their messing with him...
| Quote: | | If the Hutt employs or can hire slicers to suddenly freeze the players' bank accounts, they're going to have problems acquiring supplies, fuel, or any number of items that require credits to get. That would be a 'swift and immediate' retribution that wouldn't kill them, would put a BIG crimp in their style, and ought to clue them into the fact that something's just not right. |
With all the other groups the hutt sent after them, they KNEW something was not right. Heck that is why they took the fight into the hutts home>!>!!
And i would actually, see it as a down grade in hostilities going from mooks and bounty hunters after them to messing with their bank accounts (assuming they even had any!)
| Quote: | Oh sure, the intent of the Hutt could be to straight up kill them, but as GM you don't necessarily have to completely support his plans. After all, you have the final say as GM.
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That is one thing i do not agree with. If as the gm, i already made up what his response is going to be, then to just change it, cause i personally feel it is wrong imo is doing the npc injustice.
| Quote: | | Don't tell me that there's any real reason (other than perhaps intervention by the Force) that Luke Skywalker wasn't gunned down on the Death Star when he had at least 6 to 12 stormtroopers ALL firing at HIM, yet he walked without so much as a singed blonde lock |
That was GLs script... nothing more.
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Not what i was on about... i was more on about, is it the gms job to start the ball rolling to get them looking for those hints etc? Like say, having one of their contacts that has been 'absent' for a long time show up, then disappear again.... Most groups i know would take that as 'check with other contacts.... |
You can't judge ALL groups you know by MOST groups you know. You might have a group of people who don't think like that. You're doing them a great disservice by lumping them in with everyone else. Plus, as you said, MOST groups you know... so there are already groups you know that wouldn't interpret those circumstances in this manner, which means that as the GM, it is your job to get that ball rolling.
| Quote: | | That is one thing i do not agree with. If as the gm, i already made up what his response is going to be, then to just change it, cause i personally feel it is wrong imo is doing the npc injustice. |
For this I merely meant that in your own opinion, that's how a Hutt would be, period. To allow a chance for redemption you could let the dice determine how the Hutt would react, rather than just arbitrarily saying, "He's gonna do this or that."
| Quote: | | And i would actually, see it as a down grade in hostilities going from mooks and bounty hunters after them to messing with their bank accounts (assuming they even had any!) |
Obviously you've never seen collection agencies doing their things- especially if their accounts suddenly showed them to be in arrears for two million creds!  A slicer could enter data into any number of accounts- from law enforcement agencies to loan sharks and beyond. It needn't necessarily be bank accounts, depending on the type of scum your players are running. But imagine the problems if suddenly their ship is impounded because the spaceport's computers have them owing back rent? Or the ship having been stolen? Believe me, if all these things started happening to the characters all at once, it wouldn't be a downgrade. If nothing else, it'd be the winding up for the final pitch- but either way it should be a warning that things are heating up WAY too fast.
| Quote: | | That is one thing i do not agree with. If as the gm, i already made up what his response is going to be, then to just change it, cause i personally feel it is wrong imo is doing the npc injustice. |
I wasn't saying 'change what you decided.' I was offering alternatives to simply arbitrarily deciding his response, making it (at least in the players' eyes) more random, less 'out to get us' on your part.
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Don't tell me that there's any real reason (other than perhaps intervention by the Force) that Luke Skywalker wasn't gunned down on the Death Star when he had at least 6 to 12 stormtroopers ALL firing at HIM, yet he walked without so much as a singed blonde lock
That was GLs script... nothing more. |
Sure it was... but that's what I've been saying. With the exception of some who have so many issues with the prequels that they refuse to do so, everyone else takes the movies as CANON. Therefore it has set a precedent in the SW universe, which means it can be implemented in the SW RPG. Not that it necessarily NEEDS to be, just that it CAN. Like the Core book says: "Player characters are heroes." That's why they have higher stats than normal people, that's why they're doing the things they're doing, and that's why Luke Skywalker survived that firefight unscathed. Because he's a hero, like any player character. And while he WAS granted script immunity where PCs are not, every effort should be made to keep them alive, if not completely intact. Like The Riddler said of Bruce Wayne, "If he's dead, he won't learn nuttin'!" |
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entropy
Lieutenant
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 81
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | "Player characters are heroes." That's why they have higher stats than normal people, that's why they're doing the things they're doing, and that's why Luke Skywalker survived that firefight unscathed. Because he's a hero, like any player character.
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I realize I'm cutting out the end of your paragraph, and you may think that I'm taking your statements out of context because of it. In my view, you said two conflicting things. The quote above indicates to me that you would favor protecting the characters from death, what has been referred to in this and other threads as "script immunity."
I will not speak for all players. I know some people who will only play video games with the cheats enabled. I imagine they would enjoy an RPG where their characters couldn't die. For me, however, the knowledge that my character couldn't die would lead to me feeling like I'm no longer in control of my character. That would make the game a lot less fun.
Conversely, killing a character as a plot device (even if you have a jedi there to transfer force, and he comes out all right) is just as bad. A character is killed as a plot device when the character dies before the party is aware of the encounter. It doesn't matter how many dice you rolled, or how many dice the players rolled, or if you told the players at the beginning of the session that you were going to kill them tonight. It doesn't matter what you think the characters should have done during the time leading up to the encounter. Characters should only act on character knowledge, and they have every right to expect that their characters will be given the knowledge they need to stay alive.
I have roleplayed in both of these situations, neither of them was much fun. I had a long discussion (much like the four-hour argument you mentioned, Garhkal, though I imagine mine was more civil) with the GMs afterwards. I never asked for the situation to be undone, merely that it not continue to happen. In the case of one GM, it never happened again. I still play in his group. In two other cases, the GM wouldn't change, and I eventually got sick of it and stopped playing with them.
One thing I don't understand, Garhkal (if you're still reading this): Why didn't the characters use character points to soak the damage? There's no ranged weapon in the game that does more than 8D damage, and no character in their right mind would play less than 2D strength. There's no reason for a character to die in one shot from a character-scale ranged weapon without some really terrible rolls. (unless you're using dice pooling or something) |
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:25 am Post subject: |
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Nah... I read back over my last post and figure I could have maybe worded it better.
What I mean basically boils down to this: the players ought to know beyond doubt that the GM isn't gonna throw things at them arbitrarily that will simply get them killed on a whim. If their character dies, it should be the result of their actions, as it was in garkhal's. They seriously pissed off a Hutt, and paid dearly for it. However, I'm not saying that characters should be immune to death; it should simply be friggin' hard to kill them because they're the main characters in the particular story that's being told around them. Even the main characters in SW aren't immune to death; read the New Jedi Order. However, in the incident garkhal gave us, I personally feel that a bit more could have been done in the way of warning the characters that their last breaths were but mere hours away. A lot of great suggestions for how this could have been accomplished were given.
And if you'll read through all my posts, not once have I said that I think the characters should be restored. I had one instance where I took over a friend's character in the middle of a game because his girlfriend showed up. I'd never played that type of character before (street shaman in Shadowrun) and due to both my own lack of knowledge and a failure of the GM to take that into account when he sicced an earth elemental on me, that character died. We didn't go begging for that to be undone, although we had a legitimate gripe. But this? I mean come on, these knuckleheads messed with a Hutt and didn't finish the job! I just hope that the players have perhaps gained a little wisdom from this encounter and will be wiser with their next characters. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14171
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| entropy wrote: |
I realize I'm cutting out the end of your paragraph, and you may think that I'm taking your statements out of context because of it. In my view, you said two conflicting things. The quote above indicates to me that you would favor protecting the characters from death, what has been referred to in this and other threads as "script immunity."
I will not speak for all players. I know some people who will only play video games with the cheats enabled. I imagine they would enjoy an RPG where their characters couldn't die. For me, however, the knowledge that my character couldn't die would lead to me feeling like I'm no longer in control of my character. That would make the game a lot less fun.
Conversely, killing a character as a plot device (even if you have a jedi there to transfer force, and he comes out all right) is just as bad. A character is killed as a plot device when the character dies before the party is aware of the encounter. It doesn't matter how many dice you rolled, or how many dice the players rolled, or if you told the players at the beginning of the session that you were going to kill them tonight. It doesn't matter what you think the characters should have done during the time leading up to the encounter. Characters should only act on character knowledge, and they have every right to expect that their characters will be given the knowledge they need to stay alive.
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Well said. TO me (and around 90% of those i have gamed with over the past 14 or so years) playing under a gm who gave us script immunity would NOT be considered fun. As to killing someone before they are aware of the situyation beeing a 'plot device', I am not seeing it. Are you saying if the imperials had layed a great ambush and in that first 'suprise round' 2 pcs died, it would be a plot killing???
| Quote: | | One thing I don't understand, Garhkal (if you're still reading this): Why didn't the characters use character points to soak the damage? There's no ranged weapon in the game that does more than 8D damage, and no character in their right mind would play less than 2D strength. There's no reason for a character to die in one shot from a character-scale ranged weapon without some really terrible rolls. (unless you're using dice pooling or something) |
That was cause of excelent dice rolls on my part and s*** ones on theirs.
The first sniper had a maxed out barret .50 (imo base damage of 5d+2, so with the 1d+2 allowable modifications to a weapon before you get into jury rigging, that would be 7d+1) +1d from a called shot (gives a +5 penalty to the target number to hit) to the head (which had no armor on).
SO i was rolling 8d+1 for him.
The other sniper, was using a weapon similar to a weatherby mk 5, (base damage imo of 5d, inc to 6d+2 for the max modification, and +1d for the called shot).
The players in question had 3d+1 and 2d+2 str, even with 5 cp, they were still at the same on die as the damage coming at them.
When we rolled (i did mine in the open as i did with that group), i had NOTHING less than a 4, and both had 6's on the wild die (had a total of 2 rerolls with a 3 on the first shot, and 4 rerolls followed by a 5 on the second shot), my totals were high as heck. First one i had like a 58 and the second shot i had 79 IIRC.
THEY had a whapping 14 and 13 on their reg str rolls, and got 18 and 22 from the 5 cp. So 14+18 is 32. 13+22 is 35. 58-32 is 26 over. DEAD +7. 79 - 35 is 44!!!! over double what is needed to kill...
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entropy
Lieutenant
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 81
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:24 am Post subject: To die, or not to die |
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| Quote: | As to killing someone before they are aware of the situyation beeing a 'plot device', I am not seeing it. Are you saying if the imperials had layed a great ambush and in that first 'suprise round' 2 pcs died, it would be a plot killing???
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A 'plot device' is anything that happens regardless of the characters actions to further the story. Plot devices should be looked at from the point of view of the players on a per-encounter basis. If the mood of the scene is "we're walking around town, minding our own business" and two characters are killed in the surprise round, that is a plot killing. If the mood is "we're sneaking up on an imperial base" then an ambush is something they are expecting, and character death is not necessarily a plot killing.
Now if you described the scene as: "The streets are unusually empty today. Something big must be going down and all the locals know it. Everyone's eyes are on you as you walk to <destination>. When you get too close, a young woman grabs her children and quickly pulls them away from you, telling them that you're dangerous." Then you've set the mood, and the characters should realize that something is going to happen. Some players may need more than this, and you should give it to them. "You catch a glimpse of movement on the rooftop across the street, but it's gone before you can identify it."
You should know from your players actions if they think they're in danger or not. Have they said they're looking around suspiciously (making search instead of perception rolls)? Are they sticking close to the buildings and using other pedestrians for cover? If the characters are expecting trouble, the players won't get as upset when a bad roll kills their character. If they don't know what's going on, the players are likely to spend four hours arguing the situation, and nothing you show them about how you did it fairly is going to help.
What I'm trying to say is that it's a game, and it's supposed to be exciting and realistic, but it's not supposed to be reality. Fun should take precedence. It's not giving them script immunity to have something happen in the characters' favor that notifies them of an upcoming encounter. If you've got the kind of group who likes making new characters, then this probably doesn't apply to you.
On the damage issue, all I can say is "Wow." I would not have played a sniper using a modified weapon (we play there's a mishap chance with any modification, and a sniper should be very concerned about a one in six chance of a misfire or worse). If you're not playing those rules, however, it makes perfect sense to have the best weapon available. I commend you for not going back on the die roll, but I personally would not have put my players in that situation. |
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Demona
Cadet
Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 16
Location: Rio Rancho, NM
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:52 am Post subject: |
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A few things I would have done different.
One. I don't think its too Huttish to just kill off the PC's. If they had embarassed and threatened the Hutt I would have thought he would have wanted revenge. I see a hutt just knocking off people deliquent on payments for a loan...or being annoying. In RotJ Jabba was amused and pleased with watching Luke and Han and Chewie being sent to the Sarlacc pit. Or even the Rancor pit. Creative and painful ways to die should be resurved for personal threats and embarassment. As a major crime boss a hutt would have to regain his face around his other mob boss cronies. Letting wild animals tear their limbs off...torture...mental punishment...There are so many possibilities. Just sending snipers after them wouldn't strike fear in the hearts of others who oppose him. Just a thought.
Two. I feel that there is a big difference in stupid players getting killed, and good players getting killed cause their dice were being ornery. I have some good examples.
Ex. #1. Now this is a D&D example so bear with me. We were in a town being seiged by a ton of orcs and goblins and the like. Thousands!! And we were a party of dwarves (my fav). We have a fighter, a cleric, a barbarian, a rogue, and something else. Up until then we had been doing little skirmishes with various enemies who had managed to get into the town...then some bugbear warriors attacked us. This is the stupid player death btw...The cleric went into battle (knowing he was going into battle) with no armor. I am fairly certian that the rogue didn't have any weapons other then a whip and he went unconsious in the first combat round. The fighter was the last to die and didn't even try to run away. Now this was a stupid player action. THe rogue and the cleric died rather quickly and were of no use to the group. That along with bad bad bad dice rolls didn't help. We disurved what we got because we all knew better.
Ex. #2. Can't remember specifically but we had been captured and it was an amazing fight. We all did so well...we were using creative ways to get ahead...we were thinking things through even our gm was impressed. And one bad die roll ended it all. A fluke. In the end our GM let us survive.
No I don't think there should be "script immunity" as I keep seeing, but the way I see it you don't punish the truely awesome stuff. Punish might be a little extreme. After a player is doing an amazing job only to die to a crappy die roll...yea its a good showing of "real life" But in all honesty I don't play SW to experience real life. If I wanted to experience real life I would look at my pile of bills, dirty kitchen, and the oil leak in the car.
Point being...I think you are justified in your actions for the Hutt wanting to kill them. I don't think they were given ample warning (as you have agreed already) In my mind from what I was reading in all the posts. I saw it as the PC's walking somewhere shopping or whatever then all of a sudden boom there dead.
Common Sence isn't all that common. And as players we do really weird things that didn't even enter in the GM's mind. But at the same time we can't read the GM's mind. So even if it seems like the PCs should be checking contacts they could be clueless.
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So uh...I rolled a 1 on the wild die...is that good? |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14171
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | A 'plot device' is anything that happens regardless of the characters actions to further the story. Plot devices should be looked at from the point of view of the players on a per-encounter basis. If the mood of the scene is "we're walking around town, minding our own business" and two characters are killed in the surprise round, that is a plot killing. If the mood is "we're sneaking up on an imperial base" then an ambush is something they are expecting, and character death is not necessarily a plot killing. |
I guess i will have to agree to disagree on that point. I look at things from BOTH sides of the equasion. So if imo, based on the npcs write up, he would have waited until the most opportune time for HIM to strike (even if that ment the pcs were not ready) then that is what he will do.
| Quote: | | Now if you described the scene as: "The streets are unusually empty today. Something big must be going down and all the locals know it. Everyone's eyes are on you as you walk to <destination>. When you get too close, a young woman grabs her children and quickly pulls them away from you, telling them that you're dangerous." Then you've set the mood, and the characters should realize that something is going to happen. |
To me, that would almost be giving away a well planned ambush, as after describing that above, i could not see how you would justify anyone being 'surprised'.
| Quote: | | Common Sence isn't all that common. And as players we do really weird things that didn't even enter in the GM's mind. But at the same time we can't read the GM's mind. So even if it seems like the PCs should be checking contacts they could be clueless. |
Point taken.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14171
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 4:19 am Post subject: |
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While i think about it, and rather than make a new thread for it..
How do you keep the competency/believability of an npc who is SUPPOSED to be 'nasty', while not being lethal? EG say someone does hire the 2nd best assassin in the sector.
By virtue of them being the second best, they have a 'level' of competency that shows they are deadly. But how do you show that, without killing??? IMO you cannot.
At gencon this year, the editor of one of my new modules (that premiered there) was letting me know of 'how much' he loved the premice for the module, the departure from the norm etc. But he felt the baddie, if played properly and competently would whipe out a party. THen he said, you need to still show his competence, but not do so in a lethal manner... when i asked how he would do that, he could not answer...
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:49 am Post subject: |
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That's where you have plot complications such as have been described before; the assassin uses a silenced slugthrower, or dart-thrower, or something of that nature... but even with his ability to use Kentucky Windage, a sudden gust of wind, or a passing airspeeder, SOMETHING prevented him from making a killing shot. He might mortally wound a character, but he's not just killed a person's character, he's shown that he's got skills, that he's on their tails, and that there's obviously a serious problem. Someone taking potshots at the party, in broad daylight, with no discernable sound signature OUGHT to tell them they need to be taking some cover and doing some investigating. Heck, the fact that one of them was seriously wounded ought to become the focus of their attention- more specifically, getting that character out of the open and to a medic. When the medic removes the slug he could then make mention of the fact that he's seen that kind of ordinance before- along with some comment about being 'typical of assassinations.' However you open their eyes to the danger they're actually in, they are in for some serious adventures because they're either going to have to be always on the run from the Hutt, or they're going to have to face him again and take him out- it's the only way the Hutt will ever quit.
You could also demonstrate the assassin's deadliness by making one or more of the PCs know who one or both of them are; a glimpse in the street might suffice. "Hey, I wonder what (insert name(s) here) is doing in town. That's one of the best hit men in the sector!" If THAT statement doesn't get them thinking, then they deserve to die. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14171
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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My only problem with those 'suggestions' is that i cannot see someone who is truely competent being so easily spooked (by the airspeeder/swoop etc) or easily 'swayed' by wind and not accounding for the weather (gust of wind). I know personally 7 people who went through sniper school, and 4 of them i have seen in action (range) i would rank as having 7d/8d skill, if i translated them into the game. And none of those 'spook' so easily, so i fail to see how someone more skilled and experienced would get so spooked he misses.
Lets liken it to shooting pool. The great ones (which this assassin/sniper would class as in his realm) are NOT distracted by people belching in their ear, by people tossing chips at them etc. If they don't loose their focus, then how can you say a sniper would??
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Argamoth
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 234
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| Perhaps the assasin is a bit more sadistic, and wants to make the players suffer more than kill them. Make them do trick shots that would just impress the players. |
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | My only problem with those 'suggestions' is that i cannot see someone who is truely competent being so easily spooked (by the airspeeder/swoop etc) or easily 'swayed' by wind and not accounding for the weather (gust of wind). I know personally 7 people who went through sniper school, and 4 of them i have seen in action (range) i would rank as having 7d/8d skill, if i translated them into the game. And none of those 'spook' so easily, so i fail to see how someone more skilled and experienced would get so spooked he misses.
Lets liken it to shooting pool. The great ones (which this assassin/sniper would class as in his realm) are NOT distracted by people belching in their ear, by people tossing chips at them etc. If they don't loose their focus, then how can you say a sniper would?? |
I never said the assassin was "spooked." I said that his SHOT could be FOILED by a sudden gust of wind. The steady blowing is what Kentucky Windage compensates for; I've used it plenty of times on the firing range myself. I agree that an experience sniper/assassin isn't going to be foiled by a constantly blowing wind; he knows how to compensate for it. But the sudden gust of wind cannot be completely compensated for except perhaps by firing several rounds in a loose grouping to allow for a greater chance of hitting the target. The sudden gust of wind is a chance occurance that poofs up at the last second- unpredictable, unless you're a Jedi, and even then only if you've studied weather patterns through the Force. An assassin, no matter how good he is, isn't going to be perfect. Boba Fett, the best bounty hunter in the galaxy, was foiled by a chance turning of Han Solo who smashed the butt of a rifle into his backpack, sending him careening into the mouth of the Sarlaac. THAT'S the kind of thing we're talking about here. It's plausible because all the players were right there, and Fett's attention wasn't on Han at that moment.
The bottom line is this: If you want to find some plausible way to cut your players even the slightest break, you'll do so. If you just want to open up on them with concealed snipers who have perfect conditions and no chance of missing whatsoever, you'll do that too. There are ways of making "nasty" characters retain all the aura that they should possess while at the same time not having them simply walk in and wipe out the party. Believe me- if that's the kind of NPCs your players are constantly running up against and are always having to create new characters, sooner or later they're going to be burned out on it and either play somewhere else or quite altogether. Some very good suggestions have been given here as to how to give your players at least a shot at saving their carcasses... the emphasis being on the part where they do the saving. In the end, crappy dice rolls can and do often trump even the most liberal GM's intentions. As long as the players know beyond doubt that you're not out to get them, they'll have a good time- even if they have to occasionally roll up new characters. |
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