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DougRed4
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Joined: 18 Jan 2013
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Location: Seattle, WA
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 Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2024 7:30 pm Post subject: The Force Attribute |
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After now using this with a couple of players, I am finally putting everything down in writing on a way to incorporate a The Force (seventh) attribute, along with the three Force Skills and the Force powers as specializations under them.
Here's what I've come up with:
The Force Attribute
At character creation, instead of allocating 18D between six attributes, a Force-sensitive character that wishes to have some Force skills should allocate some of their 18D into a seventh attribute: The Force. It is still possible for Force-sensitive characters to have a score of 0D in The Force, which merely reflects that they have the potential to advance that attribute later.
Then players may divide the total number of dice they have allocated to their The Force attribute into any of the three Force skills (alter, control, and sense) as they see fit, with a minimum of 1D to any that they choose to put anything into. For example, if a character chose to have The Force at 3D, they could put their Alter at 1D+1, their Control at 0D, and their Sense at 1D+2 (the three skills adding up to 3D). The skill of sense is commonly the first one taught or learned. Characters with no score in any particular Force skill may not make checks with that Force skill.
After character creation, any character with at least 1D in The Force attribute may purchase any/all of the three Force skills (alter, control, and sense) as advanced skills. As with all advanced skills, alter, control, and sense work cumulatively with the Force powers under them. The three Force Skills do not have prerequisite skills, and the time to improve them is as per the rules on advancing Force skills. The Character Point cost to improve Force skills is 2 CP to buy them at 1D (if the character started with any at 0D), and then two times the number before the "D” after that.
For Force powers, the character may have a total number of Force powers equal to four times their The Force attribute, and extra pips give one Force power each. So a character with 3D+1 in The Force would have 13 Force powers and one with 4D would have 16. Force powers begin at 1D, and they are advanced as per skill specializations.
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2024 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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Note that I'm not really decided on giving that many Force powers for (essentially) *free*, for a value of 1D. I might back them down to 0D each, and then have the player buy them up from there.
Going to see how easy/hard it is in play first, I think.
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jtanzer
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Joined: 01 Mar 2023
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| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2024 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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CRMcNeill already did this with his Force Attribute System found in the Adventurer's Journal Issue #4 That which Binds Us. It's actually one of the few systems he created that I would consider implementing (at least for a Old Republic campaign). Basically it's treated as just another attribute, with skill advancement being handled the same way as RAW.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:25 am Post subject: |
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Would there be an upper limit t how 'strong' one can start in the force attribute?
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pakman
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Joined: 20 Jul 2021
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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Nice - very similar to a few others.
I also added a Luck Attribute to non force users, to give them something else as well. (it is like a pool of character points that can be spend during a session on improving dice. 2D luck = 2D that can be spent that session).
Having Force as just another Attribute, and Control Sense and Alter as just other skills has made a lot of things more consistent and simple.
Text from my house rules;
Force: Measure of the strength of a being’s connection with the Force. Those who have the Force Attribute are described as Force Sensitive, even if the value is 0D, which might represent a latent or undeveloped ability.
The short list of Force skills represent a character’s ability to manipulate or perceive specific aspects of the Force.
Luck: Represents a character’s overall fortune and uncanny ability to seemingly influence chance in their favor. These Non-Force Sensitive characters represent the vast majority of beings in the galaxy; and while they may not consciously be aware of it – it represents their interaction with the Force.
Force has has a min value of 0D (latent, can increase later) and 4D max for most species (we really toned done almost all species differences to reduce min maxing).
Similar to yours, force using characters spend attribute dice on force, and buy the skills like any other skills.
Having 1D in either Control, Sense and Alter gives some very basic weak force abilities. (alter of 1D allows for sending of simple thoughts, and moving objects of 1kg or less) etc.
The "Free" force powers are very weak, but we use for two reasons;
Beginning Force Users otherwise really can't do much (this is part of smoothing out the power curve).
They represent how some beings in the galaxy might be able to do a few things, even without advanced training.
This was part of a comprehensive force overhaul, but can stand alone with the traditional system as well.
My group has been running in it in our game for about 3 years - and has been going pretty good. My players like the consistency of Force (or luck) just being another attribute, and Control Sense and Alter just being other skills. Keeps things simple.
best of luck in your game.
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Last edited by pakman on Fri Dec 13, 2024 3:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Would there be an upper limit t how 'strong' one can start in the force attribute? |
My thinking was 3D max for most PCs, 4D for exceptionally strong “conventional” Jedi like Yoda or Obi-wan, and 6D-7D for anomalies like Anakin and Luke.
The thing for me, though, is that power creep for Force-using PCs is one of the more common complaints about SWD6, especially in longer campaigns. Converting to a Force attribute exacerbates the issue by moving beginning PCs several rungs up the existing power slope without offsetting penalties. IMO, it needs to be used in concert with offsetting rules that throttle power progression in said converted PCs. I’ve had some thoughts as to how this could be done, but haven’t really sat down and worked up a full system.
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The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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pakman
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Would there be an upper limit t how 'strong' one can start in the force attribute? |
My thinking was 3D max for most PCs, 4D for exceptionally strong “conventional” Jedi like Yoda or Obi-wan, and 6D-7D for anomalies like Anakin and Luke.
The thing for me, though, is that power creep for Force-using PCs is one of the more common complaints about SWD6, especially in longer campaigns. Converting to a Force attribute exacerbates the issue by moving beginning PCs several rungs up the existing power slope without offsetting penalties. IMO, it needs to be used in concert with offsetting rules that throttle power progression in said converted PCs. I’ve had some thoughts as to how this could be done, but haven’t really sat down and worked up a full system. |
Excellent point - it does help with the lower power curve (jedi being very weak in the beginning) but not the upper. It is silly level of power....and does indeed need "a full system".
Power curve was one of the driving factors in my working up a comprehensive force power redesign - in addition to redundancy, messy prerequisite tracking, and updating many powers to match newer (reasonable) content.
I have babbled about this before - and really am close - to opening up for wider proofing and playtesting/feedback. The core rules and force stuff has been solid for a long time - and honestly, my problem is wanting it ALL to be solid (spaceship combat, equipment modification and non-force advanced skills are what is left) and some tweaking on character creation and the dark side. Of course, my other failing (and massive time sink) is that it has taken forever to format what has been solid, into a nicely formatted rulebook.....sigh.
But yes - as CRM states - all the force stuff needed to be done together (have five force users in our game) if the force is going to be a major part of a game.
I should be finishing up a milestone over the holiday break and getting more feedback etc.
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jtanzer
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 01 Mar 2023
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| Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2024 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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I would disagree with the assumption that if one PC is a Force-user, than all of them need to be one as well. As the Alexandrian notes | The Alexandrian wrote: | The problem with spotlight balance is that it can mean that characters in spotlight A have to sit and watch while characters in spotlight B are doing their thing.
For example, look at the “decker problem” in cyberpunk games (such as Shadowrun). In these games, non-deckers frequently have to stand idly by and do nothing while the decker characters hack into a computer system. This problem arises partly because of scenario design (hacking frequently happens while nothing else of interest is going on) and partly because of mechanical design (actions taken while hacking take less game time than non-hacking actions).
Concept balancers would try to fix this problem by either (a) getting rid of decker play (narrowing the scope of the game); (b) requiring that all characters be capable of participating in decker play (limiting the flexibility of character creation); or (c) figuring out how to combine decker and non-decker activities into a single type of gameplay.
(For example, I understand that the most recent edition of Shadowrun uses augmented reality to effectively fold hacking into the combat-and-stealth gameplay of a typical ‘run.)
In a more general sense, spotlight balance requires that a GM be capable of designing scenarios involving more than one type of gameplay. In addition, either:
(1) The scenario must allow for both gameplay A and gameplay B to be happening simultaneously, with the GM flipping back and forth between the split party; or
(2) Characters must have at least some abiltiy to participate in all forms of gameplay.
The former, frankly, is non-trivial and requires an experienced and talented GM. The latter, however, can be mechanically achieved and is, in fact, the default method for classic D&D play.
PROBLEM? WHAT PROBLEM?
So, to sum up: The problem with concept balance is that it requires limiting the scope and flexibility of the game. The problem with naturalistic balance is that it offers unfun options. And the problem with spotlight balance is that it requires characters to sometimes NOT be in the spotlight.
But, on the flip-side, there are plenty of people who will stand up and say, “Problem? What problem?”
Some people have no problem with the scope and flexibility of the game being curtailed, if it means that they can have fun within the resulting focus.
Some people have no problem with a game requiring a certain degree of mastery, if it means that they get sensible and flexible results.
Some people have no problem with being an audience to awesome, if it means that — when their turn comes — they get to be awesome, too.
There is no One True Way to be achieved here. All of these forms of balance have their disadvantages and their advantages. Which trade-offs you prefer is going to be a matter of personal taste.
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The problem, IMO, isn't that Force-users are overpowered, it's that the GM running the game isn't able to run the game in a way that allows for everyone to participate. Granted, I prefer running scenario styles and using structures that allow for different types of gameplay, however I still think that most 'problems' that I see on this forum are the result of bad game structure and scenario design.
Sauce:
The Many Types of Balance
Fetishizing Balance
Adapting Linear Stories
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10435
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2024 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Would there be an upper limit t how 'strong' one can start in the force attribute? |
Yes, there should be. If The Force is an attribute, then each species would have an attribute max for it like any other attribute. Some species will naturally have a greater potential in the Force than others.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | The thing for me, though, is that power creep for Force-using PCs is one of the more common complaints about SWD6, especially in longer campaigns. Converting to a Force attribute exacerbates the issue by moving beginning PCs several rungs up the existing power slope without offsetting penalties. IMO, it needs to be used in concert with offsetting rules that throttle power progression in said converted PCs. I’ve had some thoughts as to how this could be done, but haven’t really sat down and worked up a full system. |
Power creep for Force users isn't the only problem with RAW. Force characters start off too weak as it is. Each Force skill being its own attribute in char gen means your Force character will start out being either able to do almost nothing with the Force or being pretty bad at almost everything else. The Force skills being based on one attribute that comes out of total attribute dice would exacerbate the long term issue but it immediately addresses the starting PC issue with RAW.
In my system, most all PCs start out more advanced than RAW, but the balancing factor on the long term is, for Force and non-Force characters alike, is slower advancement. Force PCs in my game never reach full-fledged Jedi Knight power levels.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2024 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Would there be an upper limit t how 'strong' one can start in the force attribute? |
Yes, there should be. If The Force is an attribute, then each species would have an attribute max for it like any other attribute. Some species will naturally have a greater potential in the Force than others. |
Yea like Yoda's race having one of the highest caps!
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Whill
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2024 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Yea like Yoda's race having one of the highest caps! |
There have been so few of Yoda's species shown and almost nothing of the species revealed. If you are statting/fluffing Yoda's species, why can't Yoda be an exception to the rule? Maybe his species tends to be murderous guns for hire.
Yoda's species could have a lower Force attribute max than humans. The Chosen One is a human whose midi-chlorian count surpasses even Yoda's.
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pakman
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| Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2024 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| jtanzer wrote: | | I would disagree with the assumption that if one PC is a Force-user, than all of them need to be one as well. |
I don't think anyone did have that assumption.
I certainly don't.
However - when our latest star wars d6 campaign was starting and ALL of my five players wanted to be force users - I felt my mix of house rules and other tweaks would be inadequate.
So, wanting to work on all of the perceived gaps (by me - but there are tons of force house rules out there - or other methods - as mentioned in previous posts) - I found that I just wanted to overhaul it - that way everything worked together. (instead of a patch work of Band-Aids as I had in the past - which worked when we only had like one).
(I had the time - as we were still finishing up our DND game)
On the species differences.
And yes, different species should have different levels of bounds - although - species rules and variations - are another topic...
Regarding the "chosen one" and meta plot factors - I usually build that into the story line of the campaign - but that too - is another topic.
May the dice be with you my friends!
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2024 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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Did they make that call to all be users, Before you had set the 'table' for what sort of adventure you wanted to run?
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jtanzer
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| Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2024 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | | jtanzer wrote: | | I would disagree with the assumption that if one PC is a Force-user, than all of them need to be one as well. |
I don't think anyone did have that assumption.
I certainly don't. |
Well, here's the comment that prompted my statement:
| pakman wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Would there be an upper limit t how 'strong' one can start in the force attribute? |
My thinking was 3D max for most PCs, 4D for exceptionally strong “conventional” Jedi like Yoda or Obi-wan, and 6D-7D for anomalies like Anakin and Luke.
The thing for me, though, is that power creep for Force-using PCs is one of the more common complaints about SWD6, especially in longer campaigns. Converting to a Force attribute exacerbates the issue by moving beginning PCs several rungs up the existing power slope without offsetting penalties. IMO, it needs to be used in concert with offsetting rules that throttle power progression in said converted PCs. I’ve had some thoughts as to how this could be done, but haven’t really sat down and worked up a full system. |
Excellent point - it does help with the lower power curve (jedi being very weak in the beginning) but not the upper. It is silly level of power....and does indeed need "a full system".
Power curve was one of the driving factors in my working up a comprehensive force power redesign - in addition to redundancy, messy prerequisite tracking, and updating many powers to match newer (reasonable) content.
I have babbled about this before - and really am close - to opening up for wider proofing and playtesting/feedback. The core rules and force stuff has been solid for a long time - and honestly, my problem is wanting it ALL to be solid (spaceship combat, equipment modification and non-force advanced skills are what is left) and some tweaking on character creation and the dark side. Of course, my other failing (and massive time sink) is that it has taken forever to format what has been solid, into a nicely formatted rulebook.....sigh.
But yes - as CRM states - all the force stuff needed to be done together (have five force users in our game) if the force is going to be a major part of a game.
I should be finishing up a milestone over the holiday break and getting more feedback etc. |
I stand by what I said in my response to that post.
| pakman wrote: | | And yes, different species should have different levels of bounds - although - species rules and variations - are another topic... |
My post about game balance and balance types is even more valid here. I agree that there are a lot of strong opinions about how species should be represented, however most of them come purely down to how the GM in question prefers to balance the game. I'm going to let The Alexandrian do my talking for me, however I will summarize the points in context of races.
Concept Balance:
Concept balance tries to ensure that all races are equally viable. However, they run into the problem of some races simply being less fun or requiring more system mastery to use.
Naturalistic Balance:
Naturalistic balance acknowledges that not all races are equal, however it runs into the same problem(s) as concept balance in that some builds are less viable and/or fun. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, however in low attrition games, it can definitely be a drag.
Spotlight Balance:
Spotlight balance allows different races to be good at different things, and then dumps all of the balancing workload onto the GM by having him allow the different races to have fun in the sun. It's a non-trivial assignment, and not all GMs have the skill to pull it off.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2024 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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That’s a lot of text to parse through. Could you pare it down to a specific sentence or so?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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