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FVBonura
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Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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Location: Central PA
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 Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2024 1:11 am Post subject: |
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I forgot something. Notice the word choice of the Late Great Ann Carol Crispin:
| Quote: | "Star Wars: The Han Solo Trilogy: The Hutt Gambit"
Before the end of the day, Han and Chewie had leased their new ship from Lando. It was a small SoroSuub freighter, Starmite-class, heavily modified. The ship was about two-thirds the size of the Millennium Falcon, and had a blunt, rounded bow, thick, stubby wings, and a rounded, thick body that narrowed back to a flattened tail section. The ship resembled a coarse, unstreamlined tear-drop and, as one of Hans Quarren acquaintances later told him, looked like something we raise for snacks. Each of the wings ended in a gun turret that held two fixed laser cannons, and the pilot also controlled a set of laser cannons mounted on the bow. |
Note how Crispin does not give a specific length but expresses it as a proportion in comparison to the Falcon. Would it surprise you to know I had a hand in that decision? 
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Whill
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2024 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| FVBonura wrote: | Kazellis-class light freighter: We tried to build this ship at 28 meters long and we discovered that using the semi-side view drawn by Christina Wald, the cockpit neck was too small and there was not sufficient headroom for a human, a Twi'lek, or much less a Wookiee to walk to the cockpit/bridge standing erect. Likewise there was insufficient headroom in the cargo hold to accommodate loading droids and cargo containers. Rescaling the Kazellis-class by +40% or +50% solves both of these problems.
Starfield Industries Z-10 Seeker-class scout ship and ZH-25 Questor-class light freighter: Scaled at their published lengths of 20.3 meters, and 22.4 meters respectively, their identical cockpit modules were too narrow in diameter to accommodate seating for two. Just like the YT-1300 an increase of +40% or +50% easily provided enough room to enter and occupy the bridge as well as furnishing cargo headroom for loading equipment.
SoroSuub Nestt-class and the Ghtroc Class-720 Light Freighters: both have low headroom in their respective cargo holds. Again a rescaling of +40% or +50% adds feasibility to the holds of these two ships considering an X-wing was shoehorned into the Class-720 for Luke Skywalker and his Covert Shroud gambit.
Baudo Star Yacht: This sporting Yacht was used as a light freighter by Rollo Morsai, named the Gilded Lily, and despite multiple attempts to model and build this ship there was no way of getting the mechanical systems fitted much less a 35 metric ton cargo hold. Yes the Pulsar Skate utilizes an external cargo pod but this artwork was was drawn much later, and not produced by WEG. We originally only had the official WEG artwork from Galaxy Guide 6 to build from. Even at +50% or 48 meters long making a Space: 10 Yacht haul 35 tons of cargo will be an exercise in extreme room economy. |
Thanks for sharing your findings for these specific ships. Very helpful.
| Quote: | | I agree there will be exceptions to these findings and a case-by-case study is appropriate for each project |
We agree on this.
And I do not at all disagree that some non-filmic WEG ships could stand to be upscaled by 50% of their stat length, but it would careless to just blindly apply this across the board to all WEG-created freighters without this case-by-case study.
| Quote: | | I have yet to find a WEG created ship that has not improved significantly from upscaling. |
The DeepWater is one I have studied extensively, but I'll quote myself...
| Whill wrote: | | In the case of the one of the two ships there I know best so far, the DeepWater-class, I have a strong case that the original intention was to make it the class of the Nautical Star from AJ#9, which was a 30m ship (and that did not seem bad for the stats and external image). But for Stock Ships, you had an artist making the external images, graphic designers making the deck plans, and an author writing the fluff text and stats: At least three different people involved in every ship. The DeepWater's external image and deck plan each look like uncoordinated attempts at making a stock version of the Nautical Star from AJ#9, except the deck plan totally messed up on the scale and there is no way it could be only 30m, so the author quickly expanded the size of the ship with a rough guess of 45m. The end result was a ship with a cargo volume such that most of it would be empty with a max cargo weight being hauled. And not only that, but the scale of the final deck plan was still off compared to the ship's length – the ship is slightly too big. The ship would have to be shrunk a little bit to make the scale of the furniture inside the ship right. |
Regardless of the speculation in regards to the DeepWater originially being intended as the Nautical Star's stock class, the main problem with increasing the size of the DeepWater is that the calculated cargo volume is already way, way, too large for the cargo capacity stat as it is now. The ship being loaded to maximum weight capacity of most cargoes would leave a lot of empty cargo space. The DeepWater was statted by WEG as too large in the first place, so increasing the size would only worsen the existing problem. This ship could stand to be reduced in size from the stats (and of course get a better deck plan).
| FVBonura wrote: | I forgot something. Notice the word choice of the Late Great Ann Carol Crispin:
| Quote: | "Star Wars: The Han Solo Trilogy: The Hutt Gambit"
Before the end of the day, Han and Chewie had leased their new ship from Lando. It was a small SoroSuub freighter, Starmite-class, heavily modified. The ship was about two-thirds the size of the Millennium Falcon, and had a blunt, rounded bow, thick, stubby wings, and a rounded, thick body that narrowed back to a flattened tail section. The ship resembled a coarse, unstreamlined tear-drop and, as one of Hans Quarren acquaintances later told him, looked like something we raise for snacks. Each of the wings ended in a gun turret that held two fixed laser cannons, and the pilot also controlled a set of laser cannons mounted on the bow. |
Note how Crispin does not give a specific length but expresses it as a proportion in comparison to the Falcon. Would it surprise you to know I had a hand in that decision? |
I'm not following what you are saying by sharing this.
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Last edited by Whill on Sun Dec 08, 2024 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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FVBonura
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Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 137
Location: Central PA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2024 12:39 am Post subject: |
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As for the DeepWater, my organization attempts to audit for errata, by comparing all examples of a given ship including interviewing the original author(s)/artist(s), and studying non-WEG sources as well. After we are sure we have vetted all mistakes in the stat block, we then assess ergonomic and logistic needs before we use any size multiplier. Unfortunately much of our developmental work was lost with dying/lost forums but I will endeavor to share my notes as needed in this forum.
A. C. Crispin did not give a specific length to the SoroSuub Starmite-class because she was reading Robert Brown's "Ship of Riddles" website back in 1996. Ann also was reading Curtis Saxton's "Star Wars Technical Commentaries" website.
Star Wars Technical Commentaries
Crispin knew the length of the Falcon was wrong so she chose not to perform some simple math:
26.7meters * 2/3 = 17.8 meters
Realizing the length of the falcon would change in future publications and that 17.8 meters was too small for a freighter, she expressed the length of the Starmite as "two-thirds the size of the Millennium Falcon".
My proof of this can be found on page viii in the Acknowledgements Section of "Star Wars: Rebel Dawn", book 3 of the Han Solo Trilogy (c. March 1998)
| The Late Great Ann Carol Crispin wrote: | | Rob Brown and Curtis Saxton for information regarding the Millennium Falcon, "the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy." |
I had been working with Brown and Saxton back in 1996, contributing to both their websites. Some of my findings made it to the pages of the Han Solo Trilogy. The Galaxy was truly lessened the day we lost Ann Crispin. She was shining star, and a prophetess of the force. 
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FVBonura
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Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 137
Location: Central PA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2024 12:09 pm Post subject: UPDATE! |
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This Forum is a treasure!
UPDATE: I found a related thread discussing the size of the INCOM A-24 Sleuth: A-24 Sleuth Scout Ship...skill used? I designed the deckplan of the A-24 long before I realized the sizing problem with the Millennium Falcon was so widespread throughout the RPG.
| FVBonura wrote: | | "The West End Game stats for the A-24 do not take into account the small size of the ship. There just isn't enough room in the cargo hold to accommodate three months of consumables and fuel plus two metric tons of cargo space as the stats indicate." |
I'm almost embarrassed to admit that the systemic problem went over my head in 1997 when I started the project. However if this 14 meter scout was increased by 50% and was a 21 meter scout, all of its headroom (1.5m increased to 2.25m), consumables space, and cargo space issues would not exist.
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Reaper63
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Joined: 30 Jul 2003
Posts: 84
Location: Northern NJ, USA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2024 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: UPDATE! |
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| FVBonura wrote: | This Forum is a treasure!
UPDATE: I found a related thread discussing the size of the INCOM A-24 Sleuth: A-24 Sleuth Scout Ship...skill used? I designed the deckplan of the A-24 long before I realized the sizing problem with the Millennium Falcon was so widespread throughout the RPG.
| FVBonura wrote: | | "The West End Game stats for the A-24 do not take into account the small size of the ship. There just isn't enough room in the cargo hold to accommodate three months of consumables and fuel plus two metric tons of cargo space as the stats indicate." |
I'm almost embarrassed to admit that the systemic problem went over my head in 1997 when I started the project. However if this 14 meter scout was increased by 50% and was a 21 meter scout, all of its headroom (1.5m increased to 2.25m), consumables space, and cargo space issues would not exist. |
wi;; yuou redo the deckplan with the resizeing?
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FVBonura
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Location: Central PA
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FVBonura
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Location: Central PA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: DeepWater |
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| Whill wrote: | | These Mon Cal ships are supposed to be unique but if so they wouldn't make good smuggler or rebel ships because even with false transponders, uniqueness would make them easier to identify. So I'm thinking that the uniqueness for freighters is in the deckplans. 'No two Mon Cal freighters are laid out the same way.' |
I can see you really do like the deep water class but I would argue the “uniqueness” of these ships is more of an illusion to the customer. Much like the Dusenberg from a hundred years ago, you purchased a standard engine driveline and chassis and then you transported the skeleton to a coach shop to have a custom body and interior installed. There has to be a degree of practicality to mass production or you don’t have mass production. I would argue that these freighters have similar transponder codes because critical mechanical systems will be identical.
What will make these ships unique will mostly be cosmetic which means the interiors will be very modular for custom configurations, furniture materials and wall coverings. As for the exterior there will probably be sensor comm and other less critical items that have modularity as well and can be placed at several locations on the hull allowing for hundreds of combinations.
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FVBonura
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| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Unfortunately the authors and game designers of this franchise have not turned many wrenches but that is not what we paid them for. Often many of the elements we read in the RPG especially ships and vehicles make me cringe because I know that is not how it works in the industry. Two of my technical advisors are former F-15 mechanics and they keep me at my best. Their comments about this RPG would make you blush.
I'll keep working on solutions, and I'll report here.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10434
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2024 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: DeepWater |
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| FVBonura wrote: | | The Galaxy was truly lessened the day we lost Ann Crispin. She was shining star, and a prophetess of the force. |
I really enjoyed her Han Solo Trilogy. RIP.
| Quote: | | I can see you really do like the deep water class |
You've still got a lot more reading to do at this forum to catch up. I do not really like the DeepWater. I like the Mon Calamari, and I like the concept of aquatic spaceships. The DeepWater is horrible realization of that for multiple reasons stated elsewhere.
At one point I had set out to create a new deckplan for the DeepWater. With that and some restatting/rewriting, I hoped to make the ship into something more sensible. Over the course of making the new deckplan, I decided that the DeepWater was just too hopeless so I changed course and instead designed a follow-up design to the DeepWater (a medium freighter with cargo and passenger variations) which solves a lot of the design problems of DeepWater. Unfortunately the project is suspended as I realized I am going to shrink my ship a bit to make the deckplan a better scale, and that will require some math to recalculate the cargo capacity, etc. I'll get back to it someday.
| Quote: | I would argue the “uniqueness” of these ships is more of an illusion to the customer. Much like the Dusenberg from a hundred years ago, you purchased a standard engine driveline and chassis and then you transported the skeleton to a coach shop to have a custom body and interior installed. There has to be a degree of practicality to mass production or you don’t have mass production. I would argue that these freighters have similar transponder codes because critical mechanical systems will be identical.
What will make these ships unique will mostly be cosmetic which means the interiors will be very modular for custom configurations, furniture materials and wall coverings. As for the exterior there will probably be sensor comm and other less critical items that have modularity as well and can be placed at several locations on the hull allowing for hundreds of combinations. |
Preaching to the choir here. I completely agree the "uniqueness" aspect of some Mon Cal models is impractical from a manufacturing standpoint, so they must be minor differences, as I have also stated elsewhere.
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