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shootingwomprats
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Sep 2013
Posts: 2690
Location: Online
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 Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:08 pm Post subject: Junk Tech |
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A player of mine approached me with the idea for a character he would like to play. It is an optimized Technical character. The character spends his off time going through recycle bins, used parts stores, junkyard etc. He walks around with a coat and wide belt, attached to which are a myriad of tools and parts. He caries a large pack fills with all sorts of parts, etc.
What he wants to do is to slap a bunch of parts together to create something for any given situation. On paper this sounds cool and easy, but let me tell you in practical application it does not. So I was hoping to get some input from my fellow enthusiasts on the forums.
My original thought was to give the coat and pack a certain number of dice to represent if he had the items he wanted for a certain item. Depending on the difficulty of what he wanted to build I would set a difficulty number that he would roll to see if he had the parts. Once it was figured out if he had the parts, I would set a Tech difficulty to make it and a set amount of time.
This sounds good in theory but it quickly started breaking down into the minutiae of what was needed. This is turn lead to wanting to build even more elaborate items, which led to arguing about the amount of time such items should take to create on the spot.
An example of something he wanted to create, was a radio controlled drone that could carry 3-4 assault rifles, 3-4 handguns and I think 8-10 grenades. The idea was to just carry them over the building and checkpoint and rendezvous near the hovercraft and continue on their way. I set a 14 difficulty and 20 minutes. To which the player complained but waited until the end of the session to let me know he thought that was way too much time.
What I am concerned about with this character is whatever he is creating, that he wants it within 5-10 seconds, and that it will be a proxy for his character. Granted, he has no combat skills, but I am also thinking about what can he reasonably create, how long would it take, how to take into account what stuff he has on him, does this stay constant, and if not, does his ability to create stuff go down over time, does he have to spend money and/or time to get stuff to re-equip his pack?
Anyone have some suggestions?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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I don't recall exactly where, but I have seen a skill called Tinker somewhere, and conceptually, a skill like that would seem to fit with what you are trying to do. The definition of Tinker is:noun
1.
(especially in former times) a person who travels from place to place mending metal utensils as a way of making a living.
2.
an act of attempting to repair something.
verb
1.
attempt to repair or improve something in a casual or desultory way, often to no useful effect.
"he spent hours tinkering with the car"
synonyms: fiddle with, adjust, fix, try to mend, play about with, fool with, futz with;
I think you're right to set time limits that high, as this shouldn't be the sort of thing a character should just be able to bang out while hiding behind a dumpster in the middle of a blaster fight.
The only exception would be if the character were allowed to fiddle around between sessions and create random tech that just happened to be useful in a particular situation (either as is, or with some quick modification).
The DC Heroes game from Mayfair did something similar for Batman. Rather than give him a bunch of devices, it gave him a variety of generic utility belt items that could basically be invented on the spot. Need a grappling line launcher? "Hey, I just happen to have this that I've been lugging around with me."
Naturally, making adjustments to a pre-existing device on the spot opens up some great opportunities for Wild Dice bellyflops...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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I double-checked in the old DC Heroes books and I found a few more details. They were called Omni-Gadgets. The way it worked, they had varying degrees of complexity, depending on what you wanted them to be able to do in a pinch. You still had to roll your appropriate Technical skill to manufacture them, but while the roll occurred in-game, the actual design and fabrication process happened "off-screen". However, even on a successful roll, the Omni-Gadget would only perform the intended function once.
If it's something you're interested in, you could tie it to CP expenditure between sessions...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| shootingwomprats wrote: | | An example of something he wanted to create, was a radio controlled drone that could carry 3-4 assault rifles, 3-4 handguns and I think 8-10 grenades. The idea was to just carry them over the building and checkpoint and rendezvous near the hovercraft and continue on their way. |
So he doesn't want the drone to fire the guns he just wants to carry 20+ kilos of weaponry over a building and down the block. Well he either has the parts for a repulsorlift engine and fuel source powerful enough to do the lifting stuffed in his coat or he doesn't.
It seems more reasonable to start with something (like a recon drone or a droid) with a repulsorlift engine and then use the junk he has in his pockets to modify it to do the job. Add remote control, boost the ceiling for the repulsorlift so it can fly over a building. Etc. Even that doesn't sound like a 1 or 2 round (5-10 second) set of actions. But it might be done in 5 minutes. If he has a droid with a repulsorlift.
| Quote: | | Granted, he has no combat skills, but I am also thinking about what can he reasonably create, how long would it take, how to take into account what stuff he has on him, does this stay constant, and if not, does his ability to create stuff go down over time, does he have to spend money and/or time to get stuff to re-equip his pack? |
I would be less concerned with how reasonable it all is or with his lack of combat ability and more concerned with the following four points.
Four Points to Consider
1. Is Junk Man going to be a fun character to be part of the group?
2. Do I as the GM like this character idea or does it sound like a pain in the @$$ to run?
3. Is the player reasonable in his desires or does he think playing Junk Man should be an I WIN button for every problem them encounter?
4. Is the player able to come up with an entertaining explanation for what junk he has and how it allows him to make the latest thing?
Comments on my four points:
1. An open ended ability like this is kind of like Force Powers. It has the potential to make the non-combat skills of every other character irrelevant. That probably won’t be fun for the other characters.
2. How often does this ability get used? Having to adjudicate 1 invention every other session or three might be fine. Having to adjudicate 3+ inventions each session sounds like a pain to me.
3. There are some signs here that the player may want an I WIN button e.g. if the player really thought he could build a flying drone out of junk in his pockets in just 1 or two rounds he maybe doesn’t have a reasonable expectation.
4. I’ve had a couple of similar situations in other games. One of my best friends likes putting together odd gadgets and things in real life. He’d be good at this. He even ran an adventure where all the characters had to improvise stuff from items around a house. He found we kinda sucked at improvising stuff from common household items.)
I once had a player run a McGyver-like character in a game. (It was Call of Cthulhu not Star Wars, but I think the points are still relevant.) At first it sounded like a fun idea, but the player quickly figured out that she wasn’t great at inventing gadgets on the fly nor in making up likely ingredients and parts that would be readily available. So she had less fun than she expected. I found that trying to help the player think up stuff was a headache for me. So we both agreed to retire that character.
Final Point
Having a mechanic as CRMcNeill suggests can do a lot to manage #1 and #3. But creating or adapting a mechanic ups the bar for your work as a GM. Are you willing to do that? |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
Commodore
Joined: 07 Apr 2017
Posts: 1448
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: Junk Tech |
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| shootingwomprats wrote: | | Anyone have some suggestions? |
I think it is a great idea. And, my policy is to try to make the game extremely enjoyable for the players.
On the other hand, you have some valid concerns.
And, you've got two precedents with which to contend. First, there is the extremely quick tech shown in the prequels. Remember the Geonosis scenes where the droids are basically snapped together in seconds, right before our eyes, on the assembly line?
I always balked at those--finding them just one more thing I found unbelievable and didn't like about the prequels.
Remember how easy it was to attack 3PO's head to another droid body, and then in the arena, how R2 simply snapped off 3PO's head from the combat droid and re-attached it to 3PO's body as if it were as simple as putting a plug into a socket.
The other precedent is the original trilogy, where the tech is more believable. When 3PO gets his arm detached at in the canyon before getting to Obi-wan's homestead, we see hundreds and wires and parts coming out of the arm opening. In the novel, it takes Luke sometime to repair 3PO.
And, when 3PO's head is detached in the Empire Strikes Back, it's not near as simple as what is shown in Attack of the Clones. Chewie as to work at it, and adjust it.
I'd go with this second way of playing tech.
When Chewie got the head on 3PO, the droid didn't work perfectly.
My Advice:
It's not always easy to slam together a device with inadequate parts.
First, you've got to determine if the character has, at hand, everything that he needs in which to build whatever he wants to build. This means parts, expendables (oil, paste, and such--you need a type of cement to get a good seal when you change out the processor in a computer), and tools.
If something important is missing, then you can't build what you need until you get that part.
Second, the character will need time to build what he's trying to build. The game tells us to escalate the time required to repair items on failed skill rolls. I think this will work fine for items created from scratch, too.
Third, the items the character makes is a prototype made from salvaged parts. Therefore, the item may not work as expected.
This is where you, as GM, can have fun. The character may have to keep tinkering with the item for a while, adding new parts, doing adjustments, repairing systems that overheat and burn out. Etc.
COMPLICATIONS - Often, building something from scratch will require more than one roll. Because the item is built from scratch parts and is a prototype, every roll is subject to a complication. If a "1" is rolled on the Wild Die, then the battery explodes. Or, there is smoke, and some wiring over heats. Or, the character needs a part that he does not have. Or, a new step is needed--an assembly must be created first before the rest of the project. Or, maybe the character doesn't have the right tool for the job (it's hard to set the timing on an engine timing belt without a timing light).
I say, don't allow the character to be like Batman, with a neat, new gizmo assembled in seconds, able to tackle any problem. But, have fun with it. Allow the character to create some interesting devices that don't always work as intended.
And, use the Complication, when it shows up, to put a wrench in the player's plans.
EXAMPLE
I can see the PCs needing to go out on the hull of the ship, but they don't have any space suits in the vessel. This tech character can create something, if given time.
Don't allow the player to just say, "I'm making a space suit." Make him tell you how he's going to do it--have him put some thought into it. What kind of parts is he going to use? Put the work on him. Don't do it for him.
Player: I'll use an old utility suit, and the extra compression tanks from engineering. I'll use engineering tape to seal the seams.
You tell him the rolls that he will have to make to get this completed. Every roll is possible complication (the utility suit leaks air through its fabric, cutting down the time a person can be in Zero G dramatically).
And, when the item is used, complications can be an issue--you feel something move on your back. One of the seals on the air tanks just popped. You've only got half the time now that you thought you had. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
Commodore
Joined: 07 Apr 2017
Posts: 1448
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Junk Tech |
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| shootingwomprats wrote: | | An example of something he wanted to create, was a radio controlled drone that could carry 3-4 assault rifles, 3-4 handguns and I think 8-10 grenades. The idea was to just carry them over the building and checkpoint and rendezvous near the hovercraft and continue on their way. I set a 14 difficulty and 20 minutes. To which the player complained but waited until the end of the session to let me know he thought that was way too much time. |
If he complains about time, then have him justify how long it will take.
HE NEEDS TO FIGURE OUT how to build the thing. You listen to his proposal and judge the situation from that.
Off the top of my head, he needs a controller and a powersource to control the drone.
The drone itself needs a chasis, a drive, a CPU, and pretty decent sized cargo area to carry the equipment. Plus a power source.
I highly suggest reading through Cynabar's Fantastic Technology: Droids, as this will get you in the mind-set of what it takes to make things work. This drone is basically a dumb droid, and the rule in that book would apply.
I'f he has all the parts, does he have all the tools?
If so, I'd have two throws. One to create the controller, and a second throw to create the drone (with a longer time period).
Any complication will mean: the range on the controller is really short and won't get to where the character wants the droid to go. Or, the frequency coupler needs to be re-set, and the character doesn't have the tool needed. Or, the engine on the drone doesn't have enough power for the space required for all the equipment. Instead, just the handguns and grenades can be taken. Etc. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
Commodore
Joined: 07 Apr 2017
Posts: 1448
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Cracken's Rebel Field Guide would be another book I'd review if I were this player's GM. That book is filled with rules and ideas to jury-rig equipment. It will help when judging the character's ideas--for parts, time, and tools. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14212
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Junk Tech |
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| shootingwomprats wrote: |
An example of something he wanted to create, was a radio controlled drone that could carry 3-4 assault rifles, 3-4 handguns and I think 8-10 grenades. The idea was to just carry them over the building and checkpoint and rendezvous near the hovercraft and continue on their way. I set a 14 difficulty and 20 minutes. To which the player complained but waited until the end of the session to let me know he thought that was way too much time. |
Sounds like a munchkin to me if he griped at making all that in 20 minutes is too long.. Hell i'd say "Here's a radio controlled car PIECE parted out. I will time you how long it takes to assemble it, JUST AS IS". See how long it takes and say "OK that's how quickly you can make something out of piece parts, JUST AS is.. Not with add ons like weapons/grenades etc..
Take a look in the book. It takes 2 minutes generally to start repairs.. Fail that then it shifts to 2 hours..
What he's wanting to do sounds more like Engineering as he's slapping piece parts from all sorts of gear together to create exactly what's needed. THAT is gonna imo take a hell of a lot longer than just 20 to 30 seconds.
Additionally, WHERE's he carting all these piece parts? What is his strength, to allow him to lug all this around..
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| The recently released Scavenger's Handbook might have some helpful ideas. |
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FVBonura
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 137
Location: Central PA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2024 9:52 am Post subject: |
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The character concept immediately reminded me of Jeremy Fielding and his YouTube channel. He is a real repurposer and has built an entire workshop, including tools, from things found in the proverbial dumpster. Even if you don't use the ideas, your player might draw inspiration.
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