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Character species and attribute dice RAW vs House Rules
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2024 11:11 am    Post subject: Character species and attribute dice RAW vs House Rules Reply with quote

While this is a house rule issue the question is in the gamemaster realm as to reason behind a ruling and in this case a house rule?

I am used to what is a houserule that all player characters have 18D attributes and 7D for skills.

however the RAW actually states that this is wrong, the RAW states that the correct is the listed species attribute dice plus the 6 Dice for player characters.

this gives a human with 12D attributes a total of 18d which is stated in the book to be the galactic average.
Average indicates that there are some with higher scores and some with lower score in this.

A Falleen would have a total of 19D (specis listed with 13 and adding 6D for player character)

a Twi'lek similarly would have a totla of 17D, (11D +6D character)

My question is why do we have this house rule and what is the reasoning behind this?

As I see it will either make for too weak or too strong alien characters...
My Twi'lek at 18D as a player character is actually much stronger in Dice than any Twi'lek alive becuse the it is give 18D to attibutes when the RAw actually states it should have 17D total.

The Falleen would likewise be 1D dice weaker in all with the RAW listed total of 19d but is given only 18D.

The species dice + 6D character is listed in the create new template and the alien sections, not under the general character creation.

So why does this seem to be a consesus ruling and what game issues will occur by allowing a range on attibutes of 16D total to 20D total with the 17D to 19D range being the largest selection.
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FVBonura
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2024 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you seen an exploitable abuse by Players to raise this concern?

As for Twi'leks, when I GM, I give them secret buffs and lower difficulties on some underworld-related rolls to balance them. I do ban some alien races from Player access based on abusive behaviors in playtesting experience.
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pakman
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2024 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
My question is why do we have this house rule and what is the reasoning behind this?



Because a species should be picked for story and flavor - not min/maxing.

I would run everyone with 18D/7D.


Quote:
Have you seen an exploitable abuse by Players to raise this concern?


I have over the decades of gaming - usually the same players - but I find with keeping things more on a level - it incentivizes more narrative play, as opposed to players trying to find the "best" combo.

Of course, every group will vary...

Additional House rules to normalize Aliens

in fact - in our game - I even get rid of most species modifiers and abilities - or standardize them, or balance them out (aquatic species come with a bonus for breathing water, but also being sensitive to dry environments etc.).

All starting characters get a background option that can give a limited number of bonuses per session - based on background and story factors.

On some aliens this comes pre-selected - such as faleen getting a modifier on in person social checks due to Pheromones. But other aliens - theirs are open - for players to pick.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2024 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

interesting perspectives here.

I have used both allowance of variation in species and attributes as much as I have used a house ruled standard of 18 to all.

I did however find that unless we have a super powerful species in dice, like the nohgri or the hutt then I have not encountered any issues with a 17-19D range the "normal" range i would say.

I think I have only seen a 20D starter and it worked, with the narrative restrictions on players and species...but in the 17D to 19D range I never enountered mn maxing more than on 18D and had no ballance issues.

to me the allowing of variations even more or less powerful characters and species IMO reflects the galaxy more so than not, I can no imagine why all in the galaxy are equal in all then why even have species outside the mere narrative?

On the question of Attributes and Secies we can also come into the species bonuses and penalties.

The hapan humans, while allowing a 19D in attibutes ( 13d by species) I would not rule this to be in the min max or the very powerful range as the total night blindness is so severe.

Now I can see that some species at 18d will have some advantages and disadvantages comapered to other 18d, like the duros and the Starship Affinity, or the lorrdian communication and the like...

How should or do we measure like a 4D penalty to all visoon based perception in all forms of "darkness" basically leaving a character blind on a cluded day as worth how much in "attributes"?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2024 4:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Character species and attribute dice RAW vs House Rules Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:

So why does this seem to be a consesus ruling and what game issues will occur by allowing a range on attibutes of 16D total to 20D total with the 17D to 19D range being the largest selection.


I see i because certain races get lots of benefits vs few.
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raithyn
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2024 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with Pakman. 18D/7D for all PCs with species as flavor, ignoring almost all special abilities and drawing on narrative elements to integrate unique relationships or access as appropriate.

There are species with aquatic or flying traits but if that's important, the party will have access to rebreathers or rocket packs anyway.

Ultimately I treat species similarly to how I treat age or gender while GMing. It can shape the character's identity, cultural heritage, life experiences, social standing, etc. but at the end of the day there's a reason the player wanted to play this character and I want to work with them to pull that out at the table rather than rely on numerical bonuses or skill buttons to do so.

That's not to say I think RAW character creation is unbalanced. I mean, it is, but I think there's enough unbalance inherent to the game that it all comes out in the wash. Instead my stance represents a philosophical disagreement with a mechanical implementation of species in a cinematic game.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2024 9:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Character species and attribute dice RAW vs House Rules Reply with quote

More than 18D species/templates by RAW

Mamatried, the last time you started this discussion in a thread (which was not the first time even then), it ended up getting locked. Proceed with caution. We have beat this dead bantha into the ground other threads.

There is no problem with you handling it anyway you want in your game. But it is pointless to argue with us about the way we should do it.

Mamatried wrote:
So why does this seem to be a consesus ruling and what game issues will occur by allowing a range on attibutes of 16D total to 20D total with the 17D to 19D range being the largest selection.

I reject your premise that this so-called "consensus" even exists. My perception is that most GMs seem to handle it as you and RAW do. The handful of GMs house ruling it seems to be a minority.

For those of us that house rule it to all PCs having the same total attribute dice level, we do so for the sake of game balance, which you have been told on multiple occasions in the past. Your pattern is that no matter what we say about game balance, you argue with them why your way is better. Claiming to continually not understand is a tactic often used by internet trolls to keep a pointless argument going.

Since you are free to do it how you want in you game, your pattern here feels like your goal is just to pointlessly antagonize the minority.

FVBonura wrote:
Have you seen an exploitable abuse by Players to raise this concern?

...I do ban some alien races from Player access based on abusive behaviors in playtesting experience.

Yes, I have experienced abuse by players, but only as a co-player in another GM's game. It never occurs in campaigns I run. And yes some species would not not work well in a PC group so they are not allowed in my game.

pakman wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
My question is why do we have this house rule and what is the reasoning behind this?

Because a species should be picked for story and flavor - not min/maxing.

I would run everyone with 18D

Indeed.

Mamatried, the logic that you always disregard is that making all PCs have the same attribute level has absolutely zero effect on species stats. Species do not evolve equally, so they should be statted according to their abilities. No one disagrees with that. A PC having only +5D or +4D to the typical species attribute stat is still above typical for that species.

Attribute dice are powerful. Each attribute value is the basis for every normal skill under the attribute. Higher attributed PCs can 'steal the show' and make lesser skilled PCs seem less important. I have experienced this as a player in other GM games where little effort is made to balance PCs to each other.

garhkal wrote:
I see i because certain races get lots of benefits vs few.

Species special abilities are a concern for game balance. I've found that special abilities more readily equate to skill dice than attribute dice, and varying special abilities do not balance low attribute to high attribute species.

Attribute-benefitting abilities (like bonus to all Technical rolls) are ridiculous so I just incorporate that into the statted attribute values (typical and ranges) when I re-stat the species for use in my game.

I balance all species packages to be roughly congruent to a 4D skill dice value. PCs of species that don't have "4D" worth of special abilities get the difference in bonus skill dice appropriate to the species fluff. Species with over "4D" in special abilities get a balancing disadvantage appropriate to the species fluff. Humans are diverse, so human PCs get +4D to any skills (with normal guidelines applying) to compensate for them having no special abilities.

PCs are exceptional members of species regardless of which species it is. They are multiple ways to balance PCs that do not require species to be balanced. I balance both attribute and skill dice totals (special abilities calculating as part of skill dice) for PCs, not species.

The "+6D rule" is a vestige of 1e needing a rule to make new PCs templates based on species stats (for species that did not already have a template) by just adding to its typical stats. That rule had no limits to allocation, leading to silly things like Ewoks with 8D strength. The solution to that in 2e was species attribute ranges for each attribute, but that change didn't address the original issue of game balance between PCs of different total attribute dice levels. 2e also added special abilities which reflect the different abilities species have but can further imbalance PCs if not careful.

Mamatried, again, do it how you want for you game. If your group has no issues with the way you have been doing it, then great! I am happy for your group and I hope they are having fun with it the way you do it. All the best to you and them. How the minority of us house rule it should not matter to you if what you do works for your game. You don't need to convince us.
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