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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2024 11:15 am Post subject: Providing Cover with a Lightsaber |
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The rules for deflecting blaster bolts with lightsabers are specific to protecting the character wielding the saber. However, as we see in the films, other characters can be protected from blaster fire simply by dint of being behind the lightsaber wielder. I have a few ideas how to house rule this, but I’m curious how you’d handle it.
Some initial thoughts…
-If the lightsaber wielder is simply concentrating on their own defense, they provide partial Cover (say, 1/2 to 3/4) to characters behind them.
-Alternatively, if the saber wielder is actively trying to defend not just themselves but anyone sheltering behind them, their Difficulty to deflect attacks increases, but it provides Full Cover.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2024 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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The saber being so thin though, i can't see it providing 3/4ths cover.. NOW IF the saber wielder himself was in the way, THAT i could see providing that cover...
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2024 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | The saber being so thin though, i can't see it providing 3/4ths cover.. NOW IF the saber wielder himself was in the way, THAT i could see providing that cover... |
The point is not that the saber itself is providing Cover; the character blocking blaster bolts with the saber is creating a zone through which blaster bolts won’t pass by deflecting the ones that would/could hit him.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2024 12:04 am Post subject: |
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Wouldn't that require maybe a new force power, like with accelerate healing vs accelerate other's healing???
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2024 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Wouldn't that require maybe a new force power, like with accelerate healing vs accelerate other's healing??? |
Why? All that’s happening is that the saber-wielder is blocking blaster bolts, so characters standing behind them have Cover. The only needed power is Lightsaber Combat.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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pakman
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2024 11:49 am Post subject: |
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I treat this as an feature of one of my lightsaber forms.
In my house rules, lightsaber forms are advanced skills.
(roughly each form, but there are a few other jedi type things in there).
Each form gives a base bonus, and two things a character can do as actions.
Under my form III - Soresu (a defensive form) - I have the option called "shelter stance" which basically allows someone to extend their deflect and lightsaber parry to adjacent allies until their next round.
It is limited to a number of allies as the die code of the advanced skill.
(1d is 1 ally, 2d is two allies).
My lightsaber forms are still in somewhat rough playtesting (about six months) but have undergone a few revisions and are working out well.
(advanced skills in my game are similar to the concept of martial arts - they are groups of different related abilities which players can select from when learning and improving the advanced skill).
Now - obviously, not everyone would approach this the same way I have - but the basic concept of just having the defensive abilities protect adjacent allies as an action is pretty straightforward - and what I was going for.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2024 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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I disagree with tying this to a single Form; that’s a little too D&D-Class-&-Featish for my tastes. While Soresu should absolutely be better at this than other Forms, it shouldn’t lock other Forms out of being able to attempt it as needed. If nothing else, even if a Jedi/Sith is solely concentrating on their own defense, they’re going to create a dead zone behind them that blaster bolts won’t be passing through, which effectively serves as Cover.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2024 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Wouldn't that require maybe a new force power, like with accelerate healing vs accelerate other's healing??? |
Why? All that’s happening is that the saber-wielder is blocking blaster bolts, so characters standing behind them have Cover. The only needed power is Lightsaber Combat. |
In this instance i liken it to dodge. Would you let someone 'gain cover' from 'skulking behind someone else why they are dodging'??
| pakman wrote: | I treat this as an feature of one of my lightsaber forms.
In my house rules, lightsaber forms are advanced skills.
(roughly each form, but there are a few other jedi type things in there).
Each form gives a base bonus, and two things a character can do as actions.
Under my form III - Soresu (a defensive form) - I have the option called "shelter stance" which basically allows someone to extend their deflect and lightsaber parry to adjacent allies until their next round.
It is limited to a number of allies as the die code of the advanced skill.
(1d is 1 ally, 2d is two allies).
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I could see that working..
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2024 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | In this instance i liken it to dodge. Would you let someone 'gain cover' from 'skulking behind someone else why they are dodging'? |
That’s exactly what the rules for Dodge allow, stacking with any Partial Cover modifiers. Partial Cover modifiers apply even if the character doesn’t Dodge, simply by dint of being a smaller silhouette and/or harder to see. Even when I nerfed and reworked Dodge by making it an Advanced Skill, I kept this aspect.
So yes, I would.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2024 12:43 am Post subject: |
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Im not sure using someone else to hide behind would be partial cover.. otherwise if a miss came close (by dint of that cover modifier), wouldn't that then BE A HIT on the one providing the cover?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2024 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Im not sure using someone else to hide behind would be partial cover.. otherwise if a miss came close (by dint of that cover modifier), wouldn't that then BE A HIT on the one providing the cover? |
Yes, which is why the rules for Cover include modifiers based on how much damage said Cover takes. However, in the case of a Force user with a lightsaber, any blaster hits will be deflected away, rather than hitting for damage.
Ultimately, anything with enough durability to stop a blaster bolt - a rock, a cargo crate, a tree, a blast door, another character, etc. - can serve as cover, even if only once. All it has to do is be able to keep the attack from hitting whatever is taking cover behind it.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2024 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Im not sure using someone else to hide behind would be partial cover.. otherwise if a miss came close (by dint of that cover modifier), wouldn't that then BE A HIT on the one providing the cover? |
Yes, which is why the rules for Cover include modifiers based on how much damage said Cover takes. However, in the case of a Force user with a lightsaber, any blaster hits will be deflected away, rather than hitting for damage.
Ultimately, anything with enough durability to stop a blaster bolt - a rock, a cargo crate, a tree, a blast door, another character, etc. - can serve as cover, even if only once. All it has to do is be able to keep the attack from hitting whatever is taking cover behind it. |
Adjust the "to hit" difficulty based on how high a Lightsaber Combat power roll is.
An example would be that shots are fired at a moderate difficulty at 15, needed to roll 15 to hit someone.
Adjust this by +1 becuse of the jedi defense, no matter what, and then based on LSC how much more can you add to the difficulty.
I made it so that only the best jedi had a very high chance to succeed in this.
So I took the Bonus given by Lightsaber combat to the weapons damage to be used as a defensive bonus in stead, as the lightsaber does need to "damage" the bolts.
So each +1D added to the lightsaber damage, becomes a +5 (again random here, others may do it diffently) to the defense and the difficulty number.
In order to hit someone defended by a jedi (bolt defelction) the jedi adds +5 to the difficulty of the attacket pr dice. when the jedi succeeds witha difficult or very difficult roll signifying that the bolts are not easy to hit.
So once rolling lightsaber combat and calculatig this would give a +2D to weapon damage, this is transferred to a +10 to defense (15 becomes 25) when the jedi succeeds in an attack vs the bolts, which to me is a very difficult task at 21.
So in short the bonus from lightsaber combat transfers to +X pr Dice to the base difficulty of the shot, and ONLY when the jedi succeeds in his attack against the bolt. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2024 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Im not sure using someone else to hide behind would be partial cover.. otherwise if a miss came close (by dint of that cover modifier), wouldn't that then BE A HIT on the one providing the cover? |
Yes, which is why the rules for Cover include modifiers based on how much damage said Cover takes. However, in the case of a Force user with a lightsaber, any blaster hits will be deflected away, rather than hitting for damage.
Ultimately, anything with enough durability to stop a blaster bolt - a rock, a cargo crate, a tree, a blast door, another character, etc. - can serve as cover, even if only once. All it has to do is be able to keep the attack from hitting whatever is taking cover behind it. |
So iyo, if someone has a decently high LSC, not only could they practically not be shootable (due to blocking anything coming their way), but everyone else could line up behind them, gaining the Same almost not-hitable status, WHILE leaning out behind the jedi, and shooting back with impunity?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2024 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | So iyo, if someone has a decently high LSC, not only could they practically not be shootable (due to blocking anything coming their way), but everyone else could line up behind them, gaining the Same almost not-hitable status, WHILE leaning out behind the jedi, and shooting back with impunity? |
Why are you putting words in my mouth?
Ffs, garhkal, if this topic were about how to counter lightsabers, you'd have a dozen things listed: flamethrowers, sonic weapons, grenades, EMP weaponry, etc. But the second I propose a single house rule that makes lightsabers a bit more useful, and in a manner both realistic and consistent with the existing RAW on cover, your mind goes blank and you get your shorts in a wad over something you assume I'm intending?
I've already proposed several stats and house rules that would allow blasters to potentially overpower lightsabers: auto-fire dice, arc blasters, barrage attacks, etc. Even my recent post about turrets having to cover multiple arcs could easily be extended to lightsaber-wielders facing increased Difficulty to defend against attacks coming from multiple direction (this is consistent with both the prequel films and the Legends books: see Vision of the Future).
This Cover effect would only be effective from a single direction, and there are all kinds of ways to potentially overcome it.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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jtanzer
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Joined: 01 Mar 2023
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| Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2024 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | So iyo, if someone has a decently high LSC, not only could they practically not be shootable (due to blocking anything coming their way), but everyone else could line up behind them, gaining the Same almost not-hitable status, WHILE leaning out behind the jedi, and shooting back with impunity? |
Why are you putting words in my mouth?
Ffs, garhkal, if this topic were about how to counter lightsabers, you'd have a dozen things listed: flamethrowers, sonic weapons, grenades, EMP weaponry, etc. But the second I propose a single house rule that makes lightsabers a bit more useful, and in a manner both realistic and consistent with the existing RAW on cover, your mind goes blank and you get your shorts in a wad over something you assume I'm intending?
I've already proposed several stats and house rules that would allow blasters to potentially overpower lightsabers: auto-fire dice, arc blasters, barrage attacks, etc. Even my recent post about turrets having to cover multiple arcs could easily be extended to lightsaber-wielders facing increased Difficulty to defend against attacks coming from multiple direction (this is consistent with both the prequel films and the Legends books: see Vision of the Future).
This Cover effect would only be effective from a single direction, and there are all kinds of ways to potentially overcome it. |
CRMcNeill, from what I can see garhkal didn't put any words in your mouth. To me, it looks like you got angry at garhkal for posing an entirely reasonable concern, one that I happen to agree with. Personally, I would avoid this problem entirely by not allowing it.
However, if I were to allow it at my table, I would have the lightsaber character make a Parry reaction as if they were the target of the attack. On a fail, the original target makes their reaction as normal. Shooting back would mean the target gains a bonus to the DC.
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