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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1854
Location: Norway
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 Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2024 5:36 am Post subject: Taxation and enforcement in the galaxy |
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The heading says it all....
How do Star Wars civilizations, like the Empire and republic collect and tax the citizens, businesses and the like......
We see rich people and we see poor people in Star Wars, and we see those in the middle range, but we never see other aspects of a functioning society, no grocery shops or even a supermarket, we do see some private mechanics shops and some street vendors in markets......and of course the bars, pubs aand cantinas...
But Back to my question, Taxation, how and where is this is in star wars galaxy.
If there is no taxation how do government entities make money to fund wars, and development etc? |
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fogger1138
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Posts: 100
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2024 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: Taxsation and enforcement in the galaxy |
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| Mamatried wrote: | The heading says it all....
How do Star Wars civilizations, like the Empire and republic collect and tax the citizens, businesses and the like......
We see rich people and we see poor people in Star Wars, and we see those in the middle range, but we never see other aspects of a functioning society, no grocery shops or even a supermarket, we do see some private mechanics shops and some street vendors in markets......and of course the bars, pubs aand cantinas...
But Back to my question, Taxation, how and where is this is in star wars galaxy.
If there is no taxation how do government entities make money to fund wars, and development etc? |
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Imperial_Taxation_Bureau |
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pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 430
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| Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2024 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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TLDR: Just because we don't see it depicted on screen, does not mean it does not happen.
I am sure they collect taxes - in a variety of ways.
Prolly part of the job of regional governors, sectors etc.
Maybe more likely use and trade than personal income however.
Longer Version:
We have to be careful about jumping to conclusions based upon what is, and what is not in a film/show etc.
Content creators struggle with every movement available to them, and focus on what is essential for their story and plot (well... good ones do).
World building is not as important as a character arc or story point - which of course leads to a lot house rules later....
I mean - never seen han shave - but pretty sure they grow facial hair and shave ....(70s side burns aside).
ON Taxes...
I would assume taxes are a combination of real world types - HOWEVER - due to the potentially fluid nature of citizens and travel (and just the sheer number of citizens) - I would suspect most are based around use and trade based - and not tied to personal ID's and income.
(I am sure there could be some exceptions).
That is - I doubt there is an income tax, but prolly more trade, tariffs, property, landing fees etc. After all - smuggling is usually motivated based on avoiding import or export taxes....
Some long term settlements might have an income tax - but I would suspect more on the buildings and services.
I could see some fun adventures around stealing or whatever with tax droids.....
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14168
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2024 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Taxsation and enforcement in the galaxy |
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| Mamatried wrote: | The heading says it all....
How do Star Wars civilizations, like the Empire and republic collect and tax the citizens, businesses and the like......
We see rich people and we see poor people in Star Wars, and we see those in the middle range, but we never see other aspects of a functioning society, no grocery shops or even a supermarket, we do see some private mechanics shops and some street vendors in markets......and of course the bars, pubs aand cantinas...
But Back to my question, Taxation, how and where is this is in star wars galaxy.
If there is no taxation how do government entities make money to fund wars, and development etc? |
There's iirc a dept of taxation mentioned in the ISB.
| pakman wrote: |
I would assume taxes are a combination of real world types - HOWEVER - due to the potentially fluid nature of citizens and travel (and just the sheer number of citizens) - I would suspect most are based around use and trade based - and not tied to personal ID's and income.
(I am sure there could be some exceptions).
That is - I doubt there is an income tax, but prolly more trade, tariffs, property, landing fees etc. After all - smuggling is usually motivated based on avoiding import or export taxes....
Some long term settlements might have an income tax - but I would suspect more on the buildings and services.
I could see some fun adventures around stealing or whatever with tax droids..... |
I could see taxes being relaxed for 'permanent citizen residents', and higher for those traveling in and out all the time.. Often likely paid/taken at the space port.
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ThrorII
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 12 Jul 2019
Posts: 203
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| Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2024 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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As many people are transitory (stock light freighter crews, etc.), I would assume that as far as the Empire is concerned, taxes are collected at the planetary level and on mega corporations (if they haven't been nationalized already).
Why track a trillion beings, when you can just force ten thousand planets to pay what YOU deem "fair".
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raithyn
Lieutenant
Joined: 24 Jun 2023
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2024 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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Honestly, I don't think that many people are transitory as a percentage, especially ignoring the Imperial military. There's just so many people total across the galaxy.
With that, there are many different forms of planetary government even under the Empire. Instances of global or local democracy, republicanism, oligarchies, and monarchies appear in the comics. They're all allowed to persist so long as those leaders ultimately recognize the greater authority of their Imperial Governor. Even if the Governor ends up assuming complete control, as sometimes happens, it's unlikely that they could completely change the logistics and economy of an entire planet and culture to match an Imperial standard. It's likely better to let each planet's bureaucrats handle daily governance and how taxes are collected. Instead set tribute levels for each planet/sector. (This was a plot point in a comic I read a while back but I don't remember which it was.) Penalize failure, harshly and and capriciously if desired. Let the system sort itself out from there. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10402
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2024 11:14 pm Post subject: Re: Taxation and enforcement in the galaxy |
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It's a big galaxy and the Empire has literally millions of inhabited worlds. Everything that exists on Earth exists somewhere in the galaxy, most likely on numerous planets. Grocery stores, daycares, ground car repair shops, etc. It's all there, but a lot of it would have no reason to appear in a Star Wars production.
| raithyn wrote: | | Honestly, I don't think that many people are transitory as a percentage, especially ignoring the Imperial military. There's just so many people total across the galaxy. |
I concur. The vast majority of Imperial citizens will have never left their homeworld.
| ThrorII wrote: | I would assume that as far as the Empire is concerned, taxes are collected at the planetary level and on mega corporations (if they haven't been nationalized already).
Why track a trillion beings, when you can just force ten thousand planets to pay what YOU deem "fair". |
| raithyn wrote: | | With that, there are many different forms of planetary government even under the Empire. Instances of global or local democracy, republicanism, oligarchies, and monarchies appear in the comics. They're all allowed to persist so long as those leaders ultimately recognize the greater authority of their Imperial Governor. Even if the Governor ends up assuming complete control, as sometimes happens, it's unlikely that they could completely change the logistics and economy of an entire planet and culture to match an Imperial standard. It's likely better to let each planet's bureaucrats handle daily governance and how taxes are collected. Instead set tribute levels for each planet/sector. (This was a plot point in a comic I read a while back but I don't remember which it was.) Penalize failure, harshly and and capriciously if desired. Let the system sort itself out from there. |
This seems most practical. A single galactic bureaucracy taxing individual citizens seems outrageous. Even interstellar corporations might need to have a headquarters that serves as a basis for its taxation.
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pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 430
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 9:52 am Post subject: Re: Taxation and enforcement in the galaxy |
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| Whill wrote: |
This seems most practical. A single galactic bureaucracy taxing individual citizens seems outrageous. Even interstellar corporations might need to have a headquarters that serves as a basis for its taxation. |
This gives some interesting adventure possibilities - where some worlds (i.e. adventure locations) could be considered tax "safe havens" or some kind of jurisdiction or rules where there is a disproportionate number of corporate facilities on some remote world (Cayman islands, Ireland, incorporated in Delaware etc.).
This could lead to all sorts of corporate or espionage adventures or interesting situations - a mix or imperial and corporate allies or antagonists.
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raithyn
Lieutenant
Joined: 24 Jun 2023
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 11:39 am Post subject: Re: Taxation and enforcement in the galaxy |
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| pakman wrote: | | This could lead to all sorts of corporate or espionage adventures or interesting situations - a mix or imperial and corporate allies or antagonists. |
I use Telerath, the bank-owned resort planet, often for one shots. I typically run games set during the Old Republic so the feel is a bit different but these topics are still very much there. My two favorite plots are either having the party scam their way to accessing an account that is technically theirs anyway (the owner is a known criminal or the funds are frozen) or extricating one of the bank associates who has key info but is trapped on the planet fully owned by their employer. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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How would they 'scam' their way into accessing frozen bank accounts?
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raithyn
Lieutenant
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | How would they 'scam' their way into accessing frozen bank accounts? |
So far:
1) By pretending to be the auditor who froze the assets. The real auditor arrives in a few hours of course so they need to be both convincing and fast.
2) By acting authoritative and waiving a clipboard around while spouting pseudo-finance language and berating everyone who tried to argue with them. I believe the original plan was to pretend to be attorneys with a judgement already in hand giving them right to move the money into a different account but I at least lost the plot pretty quickly. It was quite fun though, especially when the bank staff called their bluff so they just doubled down. Sure, it ended with a shootout while they escaped to their ship (and then a brief space battle while they escaped the planet) but they got away with about 80% of what they were after. |
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ThrorII
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 12 Jul 2019
Posts: 203
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 6:18 pm Post subject: Re: Taxation and enforcement in the galaxy |
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| pakman wrote: | This gives some interesting adventure possibilities - where some worlds (i.e. adventure locations) could be considered tax "safe havens" or some kind of jurisdiction or rules where there is a disproportionate number of corporate facilities on some remote world (Cayman islands, Ireland, incorporated in Delaware etc.).
This could lead to all sorts of corporate or espionage adventures or interesting situations - a mix or imperial and corporate allies or antagonists. |
I see places like Bespin fitting this concept. Outside of the core Imperial sphere, small, and unnoticed (in Lando's words). Once the Empire takes notice, they'll be taxed.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14168
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2024 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| raithyn wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | How would they 'scam' their way into accessing frozen bank accounts? |
So far:
1) By pretending to be the auditor who froze the assets. The real auditor arrives in a few hours of course so they need to be both convincing and fast.
2) By acting authoritative and waiving a clipboard around while spouting pseudo-finance language and berating everyone who tried to argue with them. I believe the original plan was to pretend to be attorneys with a judgement already in hand giving them right to move the money into a different account but I at least lost the plot pretty quickly. It was quite fun though, especially when the bank staff called their bluff so they just doubled down. Sure, it ended with a shootout while they escaped to their ship (and then a brief space battle while they escaped the planet) but they got away with about 80% of what they were after. |
What skill(s) rolls were made? What were their 'skill levels' to have pulled something like that off?
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raithyn
Lieutenant
Joined: 24 Jun 2023
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2024 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | What skill(s) rolls were made? What were their 'skill levels' to have pulled something like that off? |
I can't claim to remember all the details but yes, quite a few skill rolls. I know we used:
• Investigation
• Persuasion
• Con
• Business
• Bureaucracy
• Intimidation
• Computer Programming & Repair
• Droid Programming & Repair
• Security
• Hide/Sneak
• Search
• Sleight of Hand
• Lifting
Order is only slightly indicative of frequency.
This list may sound more roll heavy than I tend to run my games but I do like rewarding players who focus on social and support roles instead of solely prioritizing Blaster and Dodge. Since I mainly run one shots, the skill codes can range from 1D to 6D but there's no progression between sessions. Most skills that the players want to use are 3D to 4D+2. I'll have anywhere from two to eight players, with the average weighted toward six. That usually provides the party a good mix of skills for any situation so long as they stick together (which they never do).
Instead of giving them a pool of Character Points, I use the Balance Dice system I've posted elsewhere. That affords the players with several more exploding dice they can pick up for important roles but they know they have to pass me those dice to use however I want in later scenes. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14168
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2024 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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What was their TN's for this? IF they were rolling say 4d+2 for a lot, they'd be seeing as hitting moderate constantly. What of difficult rolls? Or even very difficult/heroic?
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