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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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 Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: Martial arts skill |
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| ebertran wrote: | No rule book had a defined Martial Arts skill.
this is:
1. an editing error in rules of engagement.
2. the author perhaps confusing his long term house rules with official rules. |
It is not #2, and Rules of Engagement (1997) does indeed have a defined "skill", but there are perhaps poor writing/editing choices that hurt its clarity of that fact...
| JohnLydiaParker wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | The base version of Martial Arts can be found in Rules of Engagement, toward the back. |
I checked, and I'm not the first person on this forum to ask this, and be given the same answer, and I don't mean to be rude, simply blunt, but looking at the version of Rules of Engagement on the D6 Holocron - it does not. The base skill simply isn't there. It contains one multi-page block of optional custom Marital Arts techniques, and a smaller box of multiple optional rules. There are no non-optional rules.
...
The first line says exactly that. As for where it's been "for a long time," it's not in REUP, it's not in the initial second edition, and it's not in the first edition. So what does contain the base skill, with something other then optional rules? It's not this book, Rules of Engagement. Is there more then one edition of the book? Are we both looking at the same book? That would explain it. Or is the actual non-optional rule somewhere else?
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Which of these rules are considered "standard RAW" these days? I've got no idea. Again, I don't mean to be rude, blunt perhaps. But I think the fact that it's not in Rules of Engagement needs to be more widely known. |
CRM is correct, but let's be a bit more explicit and "unlearn what we have learned" to make sense of this.
There is no such normal base skill or advanced skill called martial arts in 2e, but "martial arts" was introduced as a normal skill specialization of brawling in the very first 2e book ever published, Blue Vader (1992). So brawling: martial arts is the 2e martial arts skill (specialization). No specific rules were given for using it, and several 2e books have statted characters as having this specialization, such as Prince Xizor in the Shadows of the Empire Sourcebook. R&E repeats Blue Vader's mention of it (as an example of a brawling specialization) verbatim.
Five years after the brawling: martial arts skill specialization first appeared, Rules of Engagement p.116-118 finally cashes the check written by Blue Vader. It is a complete set of rules (with options within it) for using the brawling: martial arts skill specialization in the game. The example text at the top of p.116 (cropped out of your screencap) does indeed refer to the "brawling: martial arts die code" thus explicitly referencing it as a skill specialization, matching its previous appearances in the game.
The multiple references to the "martial arts skill" elsewhere in the rules are a bit confusing, but not technically incorrect. Both 2e core rule books state, "Specializations are separate skills" (R&E p.34). So a specialization could be correctly referred to as merely a "skill", but when doing so so you lose the reference to it being a skill specialization. If I were editing the text as written, I would require at least the first sentence referencing it being specifically a skill specialization. That way we wouldn't have to depend of our memory of it being referenced in the game line prior to this or wait for the example text for the clarification that it is a skill specialization.
Let's also not get hung up on the fact that the whole system is called an "Optional Rule". It is the original, only, and complete published rule for using the brawling: martial arts skill specialization in the game. It is an "optional rule" in the sense a GM may not allow that specialization to appear in the game and thus not have any hand-to-hand combat rules outside of what appear in the core books for the base brawling skill. It could also be labeled as "optional" because it does not appear until five years after the specialization was first introduced, plenty of time for GMs to have devised their own house rules for it in the meantime. And finally, all rules are technically "optional" per RAW anyway.
The other part that may be confusing some GMs is the fact that SW2e martial arts system does not have characters learning a specific martial arts style and gaining specific abilities with the style as a lot of GMs would expect. The premise is a single martial arts skill (specialization) with individual martial arts techniques learned at 1D increments (above the base skill). It should be emphasized that the options on RoE p.118 includes the GM devising "martial arts style packages" that each include a subset of specific techniques, with the rule that choosing a technique outside of the "style" learned requires additional CPs and training time. That would effectively make each style a sub-specialization in a way, but still keeping the system in line with RAW martial arts being a skill specialization in the example text of the two 2e core rule books.
I hope this helps eliminate any further confusion this forum about the official martial arts rules. I'm not at all arguing that they are good rules. I'm only pointing out that official rules do exist in full.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10402
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:50 pm Post subject: Re: Martial arts skill |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Going the Advanced Specialization route halves the CP cost for skill advancement. |
For clarity, advanced skills cost double the cost of normal skills to improve, and specializations cost half the cost. Thus, improving advanced specializations would cost the same as improving normal skills (half of double).
| Quote: | | The question there would be how easy do you want Martial Arts to be. |
Still true.
| Quote: | | It'd also require a house rule as to whether or not an Advanced Specialization would have its own distinct prerequisites. |
I personally have already done that.
| Quote: | | Personally, I'm inclined toward having each Martial Art be its own Advanced Skill, for both of the above reasons. |
This seems like the most sensible way to go to me too. But it does require a GM to devise the abilities for every martial arts skill that would appear in the game, and that isn't as quick and easy as the official "techniques" rule. Of course, detailing the abilities of a martial art wouldn't really need to be done until a character with that martial art skill appears in the game.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 12:21 am Post subject: |
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And it also requires them to most likely, create their own special maneuvers...
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 12:34 am Post subject: |
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There is actually a Martial Arts fan book in the Rancor Pit Library that fleshes out several different martial art forms using the rules from RoE, as well as adding moves unique to each.
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Mamatried
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 11:36 am Post subject: |
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My main issue is the "advanced" part of this, as I can not in any way see this being reasonable. From a purely game mechanical perspective I would say maybe, but that is a strech.
How did I learn my (what little I studied) karate, I was NOT a skilled brawler, meaning I had no "prereqisit Dice" in Brawling, I was brawling untrained, no dice allocated no pips, just my basic Attribute .
I learned ONLY karate in how to do any form of unarmed combat. and this is why I see the while concept as a Specialization under brawling rather than an advanced skill in any way.
I do not have to learn how to be a overall great shooter, knowing the ins and out of my pistol when I took my rifle licence for hunting, I used my Firearms specialization slughtrower rifle for that.......
I see this also with any martial arts, and no the benefits will not be game breaking.
i can see martial arts styles having some techniques that may require some prequisits to indicate that they are "advanced techniques" within the style.
To me Martiual Arts is "exatly" like Force Powers, you get the basic technique on 1D, and then on every +1 PIP I gain another power.
Alter: 1D I have ONE power
Alter 1D+1 I have 2 Powers as I understand the rules.
Not counting the learning without a master.
In martial arts I can see Karate holding a spesific set of techniques, with basic punch and kick being the ones gained at 1D and Every subsquent technicque at each addtional +1Pip.
I did see a comparison to ligjtsiber fighting styles and I can see this being advanced martila arts techiques, more so than martial arts overall.
To learn a LS combat style you MUST be trained in the Lightsaber and the force both. These should and do cost traning and a lot of it, but I can on the flipsdie go down the street, enroll in a martial Arts dojo and tranin this martial arts with nothin more than the ability to "move my body"
So to me the 1technique pr 1D is a "basic style package" and any and all subsquent techniques leanred at the noraml +1 pip as with any force power.
Or is it reasonale to say that the 4yr old that decided to train Karate really had to be at a "professional" brawling level beforehand, aka making into something more advanced than it really is |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Mamatried wrote: | My main issue is the "advanced" part of this, as I can not in any way see this being reasonable. From a purely game mechanical perspective I would say maybe, but that is a strech.
] |
I see it that way n game, to prevent folks raising it too fast... Similar to force powers for those who don't have a master...
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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@Mamatried You’re overthinking it. Just assume your Karate class starts by teaching you the prerequisites of Brawling until your skill level has improved to the point where you can “learn” the Advanced Skill.
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