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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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 Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| raithyn wrote: | | I've noticed that since the lightsaber skill doubles as the parry skill, it can feel like other weapons are penalized. I've been trying to decide if I should try adding lightsaber parry or remove melee parry and brawling parry. |
Maybe they did that, as jedi with their lightsabers, also need control AND sense, to really use them..
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CRMcNeill
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Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Since martial arts are different though, why would they have figured that out. |
Because what really is Martial Arts if not training in Brawling, Melee Combat, Brawling Parry, Melee Parry, Dodge, Stamina, Willpower, Running and Climbing/Jumping? Having to put dice in all of those skills far better represents the time and discipline needed to master a Martial Art than simply having a single Martial Arts skill.
| Quote: | | I could see that for 'generic' martial arts. BUT certain ones imo, DO teach you to fight, vs armed folks. |
But there isn’t really such thing as a ‘generic’ martial art. It’s a whole plethora of different disciplines and methods, all with varying degrees of overlap.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| raithyn wrote: | | Does combining brawling and brawling parry cause any other gameplay issues or does MAP help balance out when someone dumps dice into the one skill? |
Strictly speaking, rolling both Brawling and Parry in the same round does incur a 1D MAP, and going Full Action on Parry prevents you from performing any other Standard or No-Roll Action that round. And dumping dice into one skill or the other leaves you weak in either offense or defense. It’s worth noting that, IRL, most martial arts training begins with defensive techniques before offensive ones.
| Quote: | | I've noticed that since the lightsaber skill doubles as the parry skill, it can feel like other weapons are penalized. I've been trying to decide if I should try adding lightsaber parry or remove melee parry and brawling parry. |
Agreed. I think the better solution is getting rid of Lightsaber altogether and folding it into Melee. You get the same effective CP Cost by Specializing in Melee Combat: Lightsaber and Melee Parry: Lightsaber. What I did end up doing was folding Melee Parry and Brawling Parry into a single skill called Defense. It’s part of a larger reorganization of the Dodge and Parry skills, but can be used on its own if you’re so inclined.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | I agree with this reasoning - was kind of thinking the same thing - but I also wanted to merge the skills...
So after a lot of head scratching, I just made some of the different combat techniques have a bonus to either offense, or defense (or whatever) and characters had to choose a type of combat technique they were using each round.
My lightsaber forms used the exact same mechanic (changing forms at the beginning of the round - and different forms giving different benefits) to keep them consistent. |
One method that potentially allows you to have your cake and eat it too is Advanced Skills. Make the skills you want to combine the Prerequisites. That’s what I ended up doing with my version of Lightsaber Combat.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Because what really is Martial Arts if not training in Brawling, Melee Combat, Brawling Parry, Melee Parry, Dodge, Stamina, Willpower, Running and Climbing/Jumping? Having to put dice in all of those skills far better represents the time and discipline needed to master a Martial Art than simply having a single Martial Arts skill. |
Not all teach weapons, so melee/melee parry apply, and only a FEW have climbing/jumping and running as part of them, unless you're thinking just endurance training that some martial artists do..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Not all teach weapons, so melee/melee parry apply, and only a FEW have climbing/jumping and running as part of them, unless you're thinking just endurance training that some martial artists do.. |
Which goes to my point, as well. You can’t take two martial art forms - one with weapons training and one without - and just lump them together under a single normal skill, because there’s no way under the RAW to say that such a skill will cover Melee under one circumstance, but not another.
There really shouldn’t be a generic Martial Arts skill precisely because there is so much variation in what constitutes “martial arts”. The only way to accurately represent what martial arts training truly does is to 1) put dice into the skills your particular martial form would include, creating a de facto martial artist character, or 2) group said skills under an Advanced Skill (with each Martial Art Form being its own Advanced Skill, and not a Specialization of it).
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Mon Jun 10, 2024 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10402
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2024 1:29 am Post subject: Re: Martial arts skill |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | You can’t take two martial art forms - one with weapons training and one without - and just lump them together under a single normal skill, because there’s no way under the RAW to say that such a skill will cover Melee under one circumstance, but not another.
There really shouldn’t be a generic Martial Arts skill precisely because there is so much variation in what constitutes “martial arts”. The only way to accurately represent what martial arts training truly does is to 1) put dice into the skills your particular martial form would include, creating a drag to martial artist character, or 2) group said skills under an Advanced Skill (with each Martial Art Form being its own Advanced Skill, and not a Specialization of it). |
This makes sense to me, but another option would be for martial arts to be a base advanced skill and each particular martial art is an advanced specialization. A GM could rule that the base advanced skill maxes out at 1D, and beyond that, a character must specialize. Each specialization could have its own set of prerequisite skills based on what is important to that particular martial art.
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Mamatried
Commodore
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2024 10:29 am Post subject: |
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I base a houserule on how I learned what little martial arts I once studied. and how it would make sense in the SWD6 rule set.
I took martial Arts as a specialization under brawling, not as an advanced skill becuse you can and most do train some form of martial arts without being very good at "fighting" beforehand, making an xD requirement for the "normal" advanced skills imo a little too heavy a cost.
I decided to make it a specialization under brawling, but with a little house rule.
The "basic techiques" had to be learned first, and then you can get one technique per 1Pip you increase.
I can not see a person with a green belt in karate, needing 8D or even 9 Dice to be allowed two kicks and a strike .
The text in the Book basically gives one technique pr 1 Dice, compared to force powers being allowed pr 1 pip.
So I actually made some few "martial art" styles, based on the suppliment we have in library, and the techique list, however I do not set a higher cost than a perfectly normal Specilaization.
Boxing I took as a very basic style with very few "advanced" techiques for a very effective but low cost martial art.
Something very fancy like a multi techique "kung fu" type art, I just add up techniques with the pis as I progress.
learning OTHER thechiques without learning a new style would IMO warrant a 1D pr techique requirement, becuse you will be focused and specialized in "your techique"
So a boxer that learns a kick without taking a "kick boxing" style would pau 1D for the individual kick techique, but pay 1pip for the punces.
A kick boxer would pay pip for the kicks , but maybe 1D if was to learn a lock, or even an elbow strike etc.
this way I have made a series of various styles that takes time to master, but are fairly easy to learn the basics in. These are in addition to the ones in the martal Atrts suppliment we have in the library
(yes I know this is offical rules but this also goes to rules of engagement book whcih is offical) |
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pakman
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Joined: 20 Jul 2021
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2024 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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Lot of great content in this thread!
What I did ....similar to many others...
I kind of took a blend of many ideas (making a specialization of brawling a requirement for an advanced skill, that opens up specific abilities etc.). I called the specialization "Unarmed Combat" and it is a prerequisite for an advanced skill....
A bit on my Advanced Skills
This is 100% tied to may advanced skill overhaul;
1) got rid of the "professional" advanced skills (doctor, engineer etc.) - those are more knowledge skills in my game, or things for NPCs who have jobs in those fields.
2) In my game Advanced Skills are themed groupings of abilities arranged in tiers, requiring an normal skill ability to access them.
All my advanced skills follow the same mechanic;
Have Skill ABC to Bonus X, to access advanced skill (and other role playing aspects - teacher, time etc.).
Advanced skills start at 1D, get no Attribute bonus, and increase one pip at a time like normal skills. They cost double the current Die code.
When learning the advanced skill, and everytime improving it one pip, the character can learn a Technique (most have a default technique learning the Advanced Skill).
The techniques are arranged in tiers, based on the advanced skill value (First tier is 1D, second is 2D etc.) with the higher tiers being more capable.
These Advanced Skills cover all the Force Powers (all Telekinetic related powers in under one advanced skill, all Healing under another etc.) things like Starship related (with a working title of Spacehound), Spies Assassins and Saboteurs, and of course...
Back to Martial Arts...
I have a melee combat Advanced Skill, with multiple martial arts options in it.
(Lightsaber combat is under a different Advanced Skill...although there is some crossover).
I did NOT go with a lot of different versions - or use specific Lore based naming (teras kasi, Echani, Wrruushi etc.). I decided to just use focus on trying to create balanced mechanics and a couple of high level groupings for variety - and let the Lore and terminology up to the players and GM.
Example - my main branches are "Strikes and Blows" and "Sweeps and Throws" (yes distilling most martial arts into either of this categories is a bit ...broad...but not entirely unrealistic). With a few other cinematic type abilities thrown in. There also some techniques that focus on defense more etc. Characters can only be in a particular style each round.
Some of this was also based on the fact that after careful reading of the martial arts methods we did have - several of them were just different fluff around "increase difficulty one level do more damage) ....
I felt that while YES, I could have developed a lot more detail on specific named martial arts - but since I could not cover them all (there are a LOT see https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Martial_arts), my generic rules focus approach would work best for our game. Others of course, do what is best for theirs...
If I were making a martial arts themed game - (like Righteous Blood, Ruthless Blades - which is a great Wuxia based game, btw) then yes - I would have gone into a lot more segregation - but I felt for a game of space wizards and blasters - this was enough.
Anyway - while many of my advanced skills have been in playtesting for over a year (mostly my force powers) - and I have wasted....spent...many hours on my martial arts - they are still in draft form - so all the comments here and perspectives (even the ones a bit more crunchy than mine) are incredibly insightful.
I hope to have my martial arts ready for public feedback within a month or so.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2024 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Not all teach weapons, so melee/melee parry apply, and only a FEW have climbing/jumping and running as part of them, unless you're thinking just endurance training that some martial artists do.. |
Which goes to my point, as well. You can’t take two martial art forms - one with weapons training and one without - and just lump them together under a single normal skill, because there’s no way under the RAW to say that such a skill will cover Melee under one circumstance, but not another.
There really shouldn’t be a generic Martial Arts skill precisely because there is so much variation in what constitutes “martial arts”. The only way to accurately represent what martial arts training truly does is to 1) put dice into the skills your particular martial form would include, creating a drag to martial artist character, or 2) group said skills under an Advanced Skill (with each Martial Art Form being its own Advanced Skill, and not a Specialization of it). |
That's my sentiments too.. There SHOULDN'T be a generic martial arts, unlike with brawl..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 1:31 am Post subject: Re: Martial arts skill |
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| Whill wrote: | | This makes sense to me, but another option would be for martial arts to be a base advanced skill and each particular martial art is an advanced specialization. A GM could rule that the base advanced skill maxes out at 1D, and beyond that, a character must specialize. Each specialization could have its own set of prerequisite skills based on what is important to that particular martial art. |
The question there would be how easy do you want Martial Arts to be. Going the Advanced Specialization route halves the CP cost for skill advancement. It'd also require a house rule as to whether or not an Advanced Specialization would have its own distinct prerequisites. Personally, I'm inclined toward having each Martial Art be its own Advanced Skill, for both of the above reasons.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 5:18 am Post subject: Re: Martial arts skill |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | This makes sense to me, but another option would be for martial arts to be a base advanced skill and each particular martial art is an advanced specialization. A GM could rule that the base advanced skill maxes out at 1D, and beyond that, a character must specialize. Each specialization could have its own set of prerequisite skills based on what is important to that particular martial art. |
The question there would be how easy do you want Martial Arts to be. Going the Advanced Specialization route halves the CP cost for skill advancement. It'd also require a house rule as to whether or not an Advanced Specialization would have its own distinct prerequisites. Personally, I'm inclined toward having each Martial Art be its own Advanced Skill, for both of the above reasons. |
Totally agree on the advanced skill route - I think even our game of space wizards deserves more than just a generic Martial Arts brawling specialization...
As someone who has been deep into this topic recently (way too deep - spreadsheets with tons of moves and methods - from star wars, other games, movie tropes and real life disciplines) - the question is - how many Advanced Skills?
There are a lot of martial arts in star wars - and after I started mapping the various moves into mechanics - I notices a lot of them were just minor variations of one another (how many moves are just +1D damage). Unless we want to get super detailed on position - but that starts getting into some serious complexities - I mean - Some of you barbarians don't even use minis!!!! 
This lead me to the conclusion of grouping various moves into forms or styles - agnostic of their lore groupings. but even then - how many?
What I discovered was this easily lead to analysis paralysis and eventually - the lessons learned from my Force power Advanced Skill overhaul came to light - You just have to start putting stuff in - and see how it works out. Too many Options in one Advanced Skill - split it, too few - merge it.
Anyway - this is a great thread with a lot of insightful perspectives - and honestly - I am not sure yet about what my "mostly done" melee combat advanced skills will look like ...but that is the best part of this community - lots of great ideas for each of us to match up what works in our own games.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: Martial arts skill |
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| Quote: | | ”a drag to martial artist” |
Thank you, iOS spell check, for assuming that I didn’t actually mean to write “de facto”, and that “drag to” was more appropriate. I don’t know how I’d make myself understood without your assistance.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Martial arts skill |
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| pakman wrote: | | Anyway - this is a great thread with a lot of insightful perspectives - and honestly - I am not sure yet about what my "mostly done" melee combat advanced skills will look like ...but that is the best part of this community - lots of great ideas for each of us to match up what works in our own games. |
This may interest you. I ended up making the Seven Forms of Lightsaber Combat into Advanced Skills. My understanding of Advanced Skills has evolved a bit since posting this, so it is in need of a rework, but it may give you some ideas.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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The seven LS combat forms, being their own (A) skill each, i can easily see being the Same as making each style its own (A) skill..
BUT as per that 'there are many style special maneuvers, that just do Str+1d damage', how's about just make a list of say a dozen offensive and a dozen or so defensive moves.. That way each style can select up to say 7 of each.. SO there's still some variety.
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