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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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I'm content with it the way it is. However, on a somewhat related note, I'm considering folding Brawling Parry and Melee Parry into a single skill called Defense that incorporates the modifiers delineated on pgs. 89-90 of the 2R&E Rulebook, specifically, that Defense will be modified thusly:+2D if Defender is Armed and Attacker is not.
-3D if Attacker is Armed and Defender is not. That's all I have at the moment. Part of my reasoning is that "Defense" covers a broader concept of parrying, blocking and avoiding attacks, rather than the more narrow scope of "Parry."
EDIT: Link to Defense Skill write-up.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:13 am Post subject: Re: Agility (Dodge + Running) |
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| Whill wrote: | | Does anyone have any updated or new insights about the Agility skill? |
Actually, yes. While writing up my reply to you here, another thought occurred to me.
As I've mentioned multiple times, I see Dodge and Movement as being inextricably linked, and I've been trying to come up with a way to represent it. It's based on the following excerpt from the Agility skill write-up:For every 5 points of success on the Agility roll, increase the distance the character moves by 1 meters. The bare bones of what I'm thinking is to allow the character's success on the Terrain Difficulty roll to generate a Dice Pool which can be applied to either increasing Speed or increasing any shooter's Difficulty to hit. However, to take advantage of it, the character must either be moving fast enough, or be in sufficiently difficult terrain, to require an Agility check. A character moving Cautiously or Normally in open ground gets no added bonuses.
I'd also probably shift the Success Ratio to +1 per 3.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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I wrote up this skill before I came up with my write-ups for Defense, for making Dodge into an Advanced Skill, and for the Velocity Modifier rules. As such, the original write-up for Agility needs to be updated to fit with my larger concept.
I'm going to leave the original write-up as is and post an updated stat. The link in my Index will be changed to the new write-up. However, for those of you who prefer the original version, I will leave that post as is.
Agility
Time Taken: One Round or more
Specializations: Sprinting, Broken-Field Running, Evasion
Description:
Agility is the character's ability to run, negotiate rough terrain and keep their balance. The Difficulty for Agility is based on how fast the character moves, and on the type of terrain being crossed (See "Movement and Chases" for more information). In addition, a good Agility skill roll can increase the distance moved in a round. For every 5 points of success on the Agility roll, increase the distance the character moves by 1 meters.
While this skill can't technically defend against attacks, a moving target is more difficult to hit. As such, when a character makes a successful Move, they may add their Velocity Modifier to any attacker's Difficulty to hit.
Note: This skill is a rewrite of the RAW Dexterity skill Running. The original version of Agility (which combines Running and Dodge) can be found here.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2024 7:06 pm Post subject: Agility = "Dodge" + "Running" |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | Agility
Time Taken: One Round or more
Specializations: Sprinting, Broken-Field Running, Evasion
Description:
Agility is the character's ability to run, keep his balance (especially in rough terrain) and avoid attacks, especially ranged attacks. When used for movement, the Difficulty for Agility is based on how fast the character moves, and on the type of terrain being crossed (See "Movement and Chases" for more information)...
When used to avoid attacks, the Difficulty is based on the Base Difficulty for the Range of the attack. A character may use the same skill roll to both make a Move and avoid an attack (counts as a Standard Reaction), but suffers a -1D penalty. Agility can also be used to avoid Melee or Brawling Attacks, but is a poor substitute for Melee Parry or Brawling Parry...
Note: This skill is a combination of the RAW Dexterity skills Dodge and Running. |
With the recent revival to the discussions about house-ruling dodging, I've been thinking more about this too. Instead of bumping those threads with my musings, I went back to bump this more applicable one, an abandoned concept from CRMcNeill. This is an older version on p.3 of this thread, not even the more recent version in the post above this one which removed the dodge element and made it a re-working of only running. I still do not want to make dodging an advanced skill, and I am still committed to combining dodge and running into a single normal skill like this version was.
But I haven't been doing it quite like this version. For dodging I have been using near-RAW rules (replacing this skill for it), and the skill is used separately for character movement rolls (and RAW MAP calculation applies). So I have been treating as two separate uses for the same skill, so the agility skill could be used twice in the same round like in RAW where a character runs and dodges in the same round. I guess because my biggest issue with RAW was that character movement and dodging had two skills while all other types of dodging use the same skill as movement. For many, many years, I have been using tweaked movement rules very close to what Dr. Bidlo described here, which spreads out movement over the course of the round (instead of the silly RAW concept of putting all of a round's movement into the space of a single action).
I'm finally catching up to the aspect of this CRM version (it only took 6 years) that the same roll is used for movement and dodging in a round. My tweaked movement is spread over the course of a round, and dodging already had that aspect in RAW (even normal dodges which from the point they are used as a reaction go into effect for all attacks of that type for the rest of the round). Using the same roll will simplify and speed up play a bit, and I don't even see a strong need for requiring different dodges for different kinds of range attack. I see character movement as avoiding terrain difficulties which includes things that pop-up mid-movement, like a dynamic environment where something falls down in front of the character's path that requires a mid-action reaction. I see agility as avoiding obstructions in your path and moving your body to avoid being hit by anything.
Standing in place without cover and "dodging" is quite silly and we never see that movies. (That would be some real Matrix-bullet-time crap.) I had already ruled it is impossible to not move during dodging thus requiring a Cautious move along with it (because cautious does not MAP characters in up to Moderate terrain). Using a single roll for movements above Cautious speed and dodging range attacks per round would save the character on at least one MAP versus RAW (or more MAPs if being attacked by multiple types). So now dodging is considered to be part of the movement action. All movement requires a direction and intended path, so when the movement is declared the direction/path or intended destination are declared. So basically, it is now movement, with dodging on the way. Even in RAW, players periodically experience flubbed dodge rolls, so moving toward cover is the norm. I do not have the gameplay experience where dodge needs nerfed because characters just dancing in place to avoid range attacks simple does not occur in practice. Even though a single roll movement/dodge attempt is one MAP to any other actions anyway, I think it would make sense that it must be at least a Cruising speed move to get the benefit of the roll also counting as a dodge. Otherwise, you are moving too slow to "dodge."
I would also apply this single/combo roll premise to vehicles, etc. (which already combine operation and dodge skills into a single skill).
And this still wouldn't change my solution to RAW's weird issue where a poor dodging roll makes it easier to hit a character: The difficult to hit is the agility roll or the base difficulty for the range, whichever is higher. But that agility roll must still beat the terrain difficulty based on speed or the character will wipe out, just like in RAW movement rules. And it does make sense that there should be some speed/velocity modifier affecting the attacker's difficulty, because hitting a moving target should be harder than hitting a still one.
I folded the parry skills into the brawling and melee attack skills, but also had a rule that one could use 1/2 an agility roll. I can see the same roll single roll being halved for these if these attacks happen along the way, since in my movements rules the movement is spread out over the round and the character could possibly be near enough an attacking character to be attacked mid-movement. But I can also see parrying at another MAP the normal way reactions work if preferred. The difference would be just reactively incorporating the avoidance of these attacks into the movement or specifically blocking them. But if they are running near enough to an attacker that can brawl or melee a moving character, the attackers should likewise have a velocity modifier to their attack because they are attacking a moving character, so maybe there is no need to halve the agility roll.
The bottom line is that dancing-in-place/Matrix dodging simply does not exist in this concept. Dodging making it harder to hit is primarily a factor of the target moving, with the consideration that a character can do things while moving to make themselves be harder to hit and incorporate reactions to attacks into their movement mid-movement. In a firefight, characters of sensible players are still normally going to run for cover when available. This is the skill they use to run for cover. I do not see that dodging needs to be an advanced skill because I am ok with this general combo agility ability defaulting to the attribute and I do not see prerequisites being needed (the two criteria for making a skill advanced).
Thoughts about all this so far?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2024 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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If there’s sufficient interest, I’d be okay with adding the original Agility skill (combined Running and Dodge) to the Recycle Bin on my Index, for ease of access.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2024 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | If there’s sufficient interest, I’d be okay with adding the original Agility skill (combined Running and Dodge) to the Recycle Bin on my Index, for ease of access. |
I assumed the old Agility skill (Dodge+Running) was already in your Recycle Bin already since you've moved on to a new version (removing Dodge to make it separate advanced skill). Since you have two versions of Agility, I think they should be listed separately in your index, each in its proper place.
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Totally Not An ISB Agent
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Location: New Brunswick, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2024 10:48 am Post subject: Re: Agility = "Dodge" + "Running" |
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| Whill wrote: | | Thoughts about all this so far? |
I'm definitely leaning this way for combining Dodge and Running into Agility and making it so that you have to be moving to be able to Dodge.
However, as for the Difficulty, I can't say I agree with this part:
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | When used to avoid attacks, the Difficulty is based on the Base Difficulty for the Range of the attack. |
I would think that if anything, it would be the reverse. It would be much more difficult to dodge a shot at PB range than at Extreme range, so I came up with these Difficulties:
Point Blank: Heroic
Short: Very Difficult
Medium: Difficult
Long: Moderate
Extreme: Easy
You would for sure need to add the bit about the Difficulty being the Agility roll or the base Difficulty for the range, whichever is higher.
I was also thinking that as an alternative, you could set the Base Difficulty to dodge a shot at Medium, which on a successful roll would give the shooter a +1D to his to-hit Difficulty, and for every 5 points over the DC, the shooter gains an additional +1D to his to-hit Difficulty.
I'm not really sure which of these two concepts I prefer. I agree with CRMcNeill's premise that dodging should be inferior to taking Cover, so maybe they need to be tweaked a bit. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2024 12:44 am Post subject: |
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I have a vague recollection of there being a good reason I wrote it that way, but I can’t for the life of me remember what it was. I think this was part of what started me down the “nerf Dodge” path because the existing rules just felt wonky, particularly when it came to Dodging at Long Range. When rolling a normal Dodge, a character is basically just as easy to hit at Long as he is at Point Blank (provided the shooter beats the Difficulty for the range). A more realistic method would be to always stack Dodge with the Range Difficulty, but that majorly unbalances the Difficulty to hit against the shooter. As such, I started looking for ways to keep Dodge as a skill, but reduce the dice numbers and cap skill progression. Making it an Advanced Skill was the most obvious option.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2024 1:36 am Post subject: Re: Agility = "Dodge" + "Running" |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I think this was part of what started me down the “nerf Dodge” path because the existing rules just felt wonky, particularly when it came to Dodging at Long Range. When rolling a normal Dodge, a character is basically just as easy to hit at Long as he is at Point Blank (provided the shooter beats the Difficulty for the range). |
A simple solution to that has been stated above: "You would for sure need to add the bit about the Difficulty being the Agility roll or the base Difficulty for the range, whichever is higher." Simply make the attacker's to-hit difficulty be the range difficulty or the dodge roll, whichever is higher.
| Quote: | | A more realistic method would be to always stack Dodge with the Range Difficulty, but that majorly unbalances the Difficulty to hit against the shooter. |
So that should be reserved for full reaction as it is in RAW.
| Quote: | | As such, I started looking for ways to keep Dodge as a skill, but reduce the dice numbers and cap skill progression. Making it an Advanced Skill was the most obvious option. |
Advanced skills don't cap skill progression. They prevent skill progression from even starting unless you have the advanced skill. If you don't have the advanced skill, you can't do it at all. No attribute defaults.
| Totally Not An ISB Agent wrote: | I'm definitely leaning this way for combining Dodge and Running into Agility and making it so that you have to be moving to be able to Dodge.
...
I was also thinking that as an alternative, you could set the Base Difficulty to dodge a shot at Medium, which on a successful roll would give the shooter a +1D to his to-hit Difficulty, and for every 5 points over the DC, the shooter gains an additional +1D to his to-hit Difficulty. |
I don't see any reason to overcomplicate it by having the dodge roll have to beat a certain number to achieve an effect. The dodge roll has always either become the difficulty for normal dodges (with the added stipulation of it being higher than the range difficulty) or the dodge roll added to the range difficulty for full dodges. The dodge is trying to make another character fail by making the shot harder.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2024 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Simply make the attacker's to-hit difficulty be the range difficulty or the dodge roll, whichever is higher. |
| Quote: | | So that should be reserved for full reaction as it is in RAW. |
This has always felt wrong to me, even though I have difficulty articulating why. It seems axiomatic that a moving target will be more difficult to hit than a stationary target at a given range, and thus any Dodge roll (or any other form of movement) should stack with the base Difficulty to Hit. The problem I ran into is that simply allowing Dodge to always stack with the Base Difficulty was too effective a defense, and thus I needed a way to reduce the amount of dice being rolled when Dodging.
| Quote: | | Advanced skills don't cap skill progression. |
I meant "cap" in the sense of throttling or slowing progression. By making it an Advanced Skill, it's relatively easy for a character to acquire 1D or 2D, but the way CP costs ramp up, it makes it a lot harder to progress.
There have been a lot of steps along the way to this concept, and I haven't kept track of them all (which is likely hindering my ability to properly explain my reasoning). However, one step I do remember is liking how Static Defense (either from D6 Space or MiniSix, I can't remember which) was simply added to the Base Difficulty to Hit. Then, after some consideration, I decided I still wanted the randomization of dice rolling, while still wanting the lower average number results (similar to the values found in Static Defense) to stack with the Base Difficulty on Gunnery. Combined with other aspects brought up by Naaman (to the effect that being able to Dodge in the sense of preempting an attack rather than reacting to it), making Dodge into an Advanced Skill solved all my issues.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2024 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | There have been a lot of steps along the way to this concept, and I haven't kept track of them all (which is likely hindering my ability to properly explain my reasoning). However, one step I do remember is liking how Static Defense (either from D6 Space or MiniSix, I can't remember which) was simply added to the Base Difficulty to Hit. Then, after some consideration, I decided I still wanted the randomization of dice rolling |
I'm not a fan of static defenses for that reason.
| Quote: | | I meant "cap" in the sense of throttling or slowing progression. By making it an Advanced Skill, it's relatively easy for a character to acquire 1D or 2D, but the way CP costs ramp up, it makes it a lot harder to progress. |
Ah. "Cap" reads like preventing something from increasing or putting an upper limit on something. Thanks for clarifying.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I have difficulty articulating why. It seems axiomatic that a moving target will be more difficult to hit than a stationary target at a given range, and thus any Dodge roll (or any other form of movement) should stack with the base Difficulty to Hit. The problem I ran into is that simply allowing Dodge to always stack with the Base Difficulty was too effective a defense, and thus I needed a way to reduce the amount of dice being rolled when Dodging. |
RAW addresses your feeling more than I do. By having the normal dodge roll replace the difficulty so there is a chance that dodge may make it easier for the shooter to hit, dodge is less effective on average. Dodge adding to the difficulty (full reaction) is reserved only for rounds where the character can't shoot back at his enemies or roll for any other "actions". In RAW, both types of dodges have downsides in different ways. But the problem with RAW's downside of normal dodge is the unrealism of dodging sometimes making it easier to hit.
As far as rolling less dice, that already happens with normal dodges in RAW because, unless the character did not declare any actions that round (which almost never happens), the character's normal dodge is going to be MAPped by whatever actions they declared.
I don't have the problem you do. I don't have the experience that dodge even needs nerfed further. In my experience, dodge is the single most important skill in the game. Surviving the run for cover is how characters survive. If your issue is wanting characters to have even less dice to roll for normal dodge than MAPs account for, there are other possible mods besides going straight to making it an advanced skill.
| Quote: | | Combined with other aspects brought up by Naaman (to the effect that being able to Dodge in the sense of preempting an attack rather than reacting to it), making Dodge into an Advanced Skill solved all my issues. |
Naaman understandably had a very real-world military perspective from his service, and a very player-oriented perspective from his gaming experience. Dodging in the game has and should have a more cinematic quality. Naaman is free to return and speak for himself.
Both full and even normal dodge has a preemptive aspect in RAW. If a player declares at the beginning of the round that their character is doing a full dodge that round, they are doing their best to anticipate attacks for that round. A normal dodge only starts as a reaction to an attack, but since it is in effect for the rest of the round, it becomes preemptive for the rest of round. In response to a danger, the character is deciding, at the cost of a declared action or an additional 1D penalty to all actions, to try to avoid that danger for the rest of the round.
Movement has a preemptive aspect as you decide where you need to end up and plot out a quick mental course to get there. In RAW movement rules, some of the terrain descriptions involve moving through a dynamic environment, such as a starship breaking apart and places with falling debris or exploding consoles. That movement that has a reactive quality too. And even without the environment actively changing, from the character's point of view other movement is still reactive because the character still has to navigate obstacles they may not have known about when they started the run, like suddenly noticing mid-run that there is a hole that must be stepped over to avoid tripping. The GM accounts for these obstacles when deciding the terrain difficulty, even though the PC may not know about them until after the movement action has begun.
Therefore movement, like both kinds of dodging, is both preemptive and reactive. This, combined with the fact that all skills used for movement rolls are also used for dodging except running/dodge for characters, make it a no-brainer for merging the two skills. The combo-skill should be a non-advanced skill because running is, and both component skills have a basic, instinctive aspect.
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Dr. Bidlo
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2024 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| I have been applying a simple adjustment to the dodge rolls to address the concerns listed above. If the dodge is greater than the base difficulty, before any modifiers for lighting, cover, etc. Then the dodge roll replaces the range difficulty to hit. If the dodge roll is worse, the base difficulty stands. Other modifiers for lighting, cover, etc. are added after determining the difficulty. It is a quick and easy fix for the problem of spending an action just to jump in front of a blaster bolt. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I have been applying a simple adjustment to the dodge rolls to address the concerns listed above. If the dodge is greater than the base difficulty, before any modifiers for lighting, cover, etc. Then the dodge roll replaces the range difficulty to hit. If the dodge roll is worse, the base difficulty stands. Other modifiers for lighting, cover, etc. are added after determining the difficulty. It is a quick and easy fix for the problem of spending an action just to jump in front of a blaster bolt. |
A couple of us had mentioned doing this back in the thread. Great minds something something.
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Dr. Bidlo
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah, I thought that sounded familiar... I have been MIA for a long time since my group has migrated to another game system, but I am waiting for the day we come back to Star Wars. |
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