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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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Again, I was working on a reply, and I just stopped caring. Yes, I accidentally mixed up my own headcanon for repulsorlifts with the RAW, and I honestly have no f-ing idea why we're still debating this. I have my own solution. If you don't like it, I don't care.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Inquisitor1138
Captain
Joined: 28 Nov 2021
Posts: 607
Location: Hoth. Or Ilum...
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2024 10:04 pm Post subject: seeking answers |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Again, I was working on a reply, and I just stopped caring. Yes, I accidentally mixed up my own headcanon for repulsorlifts with the RAW, and I honestly have no f-ing idea why we're still debating this. I have my own solution. If you don't like it, I don't care. |
What is your solution?
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Inquisitor1138
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Joined: 28 Nov 2021
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Location: Hoth. Or Ilum...
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2024 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: "Ye cannae change the Laws of Physics!" |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Inquisitor1138 wrote: | | But your statement about downgrading Space speed but increasing Atmosphere speed doesn't make sense. The sublight engines that propel the ship through space are the same ones that propel it through atmosphere. |
Per the RAW, starships use repulsorlifts until they reach orbit, at which point they can use their sublight drives. This is supported by the guidelines for traveling to another planet in the same Star system, which would require extremely high velocities not seen in either the existing stats or on screen. Further, not all existing stats have Atmosphere speeds that match with their common Space equivalent. In at least two instances (the Z-95 Headhunter and the I-7 Howlrunner) ships are “faster” in atmosphere than they should be. The Howlrunner, for example has a Space of 9, but has the same Atmosphere as would a TIE Interceptor (Space 11).
In addition, there seems to be a very hard lockout on using sublight drives in atmosphere. In at least two on-screen instances (escape from Cloud City in ESB and escape from Jedha in RO), it would’ve been very useful to simply be able to engage the sublight drives and use their extremely high speeds to escape pursuers / destruction. Instead, they chose to endure a long tail chase or a blind hyperspace jump.
The working theory seems to be that full power sublight drives used in atmosphere would cause catastrophic damage to an inhabited planet, both from shockwaves produced by moving at hypersonic velocities and the waste / thrust ejected by the drive itself. My solution is that a ship’s drive is a dual-mode system that uses a safer, much less powerful drive system while in atmosphere. The atmospheric drive is integrated with the main sublight drive and uses the same thrust nozzles, but having a faster Atmosphere drive cuts into the performance of the Sublight drive, and vice versa.
This helps explain several stat discrepancies, and allows for more granularity in starships, with some ships sacrificing space performance for atmospheric, and others sacrificing atmospheric performance for space. |
So this 'extra' propulsion system is your headcanon solution to the Space/Atmosphere discrepancies in the RAW? This explanation seems to be missing something, like you may have left out some details unintentionally, which are necessary to the whole.
Hyperdrives aren't used in an atmosphere, but sublight engines are. This is RAW & on-screen canon. When the Falcon lifts off it is using its repulsors. Then there's a flash from the sublight engines as the Falcon accelerates, "Blasting out of" Mos Eisley.
I know of no source stipulating sublight engines can't be used in an atmosphere, only hyperdrives.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | -snip- I opted with the idea that the Victory I’s Space was deliberately downgraded in trade for improved atmospheric performance (it’s as fast as a Y-Wing in atmospheric flight). -snip- |
Clarification Pending, regarding the above explanation?
| Dark Empire Sourcebook wrote: | TIE/D Automated Fighter
Space: 10
Atmosphere: 450;1300 KMH
Incom I-7 Howlrunner
Space: 9
Atmosphere: 450; 1300KMH |
| Code: | Die Code Space Move/Atmosphere Examples
4D+2 9 400; 1,150 km/h I-7 Howlrunner, Scimitar Assault Bomber, Hornet Int, Guardian-class LC
5D 10 415; 1,200 km/h TIE/ln Fighter, TIE/rc Recon, TIE/D droid ftr, Delta-7 Aethersprite, TIE Advanced x1, Acclamator-class Assault Ship, Diamond-class Cruiser
5D+2 11 435; 1,250 km/h TIE Interceptor, E-wing, StarViper Assault Ftr*
6D 12 450; 1,300 km/h A-wing Int, A-9 Vigilance Int, TIE Avenger[?], T-wing Int, T-65AC4 X-wing |
Interesting the DES has Two Starfighters in a row, same Atmosphere: 450;1300 KMH...
Nothing in the stat block nor the fluff to explain the incongruities of the mismatched Space: & Atmosphere: speeds. Ergo, readers are forced to:
a) Accept the stats as-is, despite throwing the Speed Chart out the window.
b) Try to conjure up/reverse engineer what the writer was thinking & failed 100% to explain why the discrepancy.
c) Accept that mistakes were made & make corrections/revisions that make sense.
i took the third option. My fix was that there are different models, iterative steps. In the case of the I-7 Howlrunner, Space: 9 to Space: 12, & Space: 10 to Space: 12 for the TIE/D Automated Fighter.
Problems solved.
_________________
Facing all that you fear will free you from yourself.
The Rancor Pit Library
Bounty Hunting is a Complicated Profession... Wouldn't you agree?
Game Mastering is a Complicated Profession... Wouldn't you agree?
Count Dooku: Your swords, please. We don't want to make a mess of things in front of the Chancellor. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2024 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| Inquisitor1138 wrote: | | So this 'extra' propulsion system is your headcanon solution to the Space/Atmosphere discrepancies in the RAW? This explanation seems to be missing something, like you may have left out some details unintentionally, which are necessary to the whole. |
"Starships cover thousands of kilometers per second in open space." (2R&E pg. 123)
Thousands of kilometers per second is a lot faster than the A-Wing's 1,300 kilometers per hour, thus ships are obviously capable of much greater velocities than their atmospheric performance indicates. However, for unknown reasons, they don't actually use that level of thrust in atmosphere, even under the most dire of circumstances. Ships in canon are actually seen to go into hyperdrive in atmosphere rather than attempt to accelerate to the "thousands of kilometers per second" WEG says they are capable of.
| Quote: | | Hyperdrives aren't used in an atmosphere, but sublight engines are. This is RAW & on-screen canon. |
Did you forget about Rogue One? It is on-screen canon that at least one ship can use its hyperdrive in atmosphere, in blatant defiance of WEG's own rules about how far away ships must be from a planet to be able to safely use their hyperdrives. I have my own theories about how this is possible.
| Quote: | | When the Falcon lifts off it is using its repulsors. Then there's a flash from the sublight engines as the Falcon accelerates, "Blasting out of" Mos Eisley. |
Yes, WEG says that ships use their sublight drives in atmosphere. However, as I pointed out above, they appear to only be able to use a fraction of their full power in atmosphere, even under circumstances where the ability to use that full power is likely the difference between life and death. Again, WEG gives no particular reason for this, but it is baked into their stat system, and there is no method in the system to work around it (i.e. there is no conversion system from Km/h to SUs to suggest how fast a ship truly could go if it went "full send" in atmosphere).
Thus, my headcanon is that ship sublight drives are equipped with stringent lock-outs that prevent them from using their full thrust while in atmosphere, to the point where it's easier to overcome the safety lock-outs on hyperdrives in a gravity well than it is the sub-light full power lock-outs. Multiple reasons have been suggested as to why, such as environmental damage (hypersonic shockwaves, radiation or high energy effects) or potential damage to the ship itself (atmospheric friction overloading the shields). For multiple reasons, I lean toward the former.
So, at its core, my theory is that a starship's "sublight drive" consists of both a high-power, high-output drive - that can propel the ship at "thousands of kilometers per second", but would also inflict serious damage to the ship's surroundings in atmosphere - and a much lower power thrust system used strictly for atmospheric operation. Because both systems make up the "sublight drives" and thrust out of the same thruster ports, this allows WEG's "ships use sublight drives in atmosphere" statement to be true, while also bypassing the contradictions inherent in WEG's own fluff and stat write-ups.
In addition, because the sublight drive incorporates two separate thrust systems, it's possible for one system to be enhanced over (or even at the expense of) the other, subject to what I posted here.
| Quote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | -snip- I opted with the idea that the Victory I’s Space was deliberately downgraded in trade for improved atmospheric performance (it’s as fast as a Y-Wing in atmospheric flight). -snip- |
Clarification Pending, regarding the above explanation? |
Thus, my version of the Victory I has a Space of 4, but has the Atmosphere of a ship with a Space of 7, which befits its role as an orbital fire support and rapid response assault transport warship.
| Quote: | Ergo, readers are forced to:
a) Accept the stats as-is, despite throwing the Speed Chart out the window.
b) Try to conjure up/reverse engineer what the writer was thinking & failed 100% to explain why the discrepancy.
c) Accept that mistakes were made & make corrections/revisions that make sense. |
d) Use their brains and come up with their own headcanon explanation that incorporates and smooths over all the apparent contradictions in a manner that also allows for ships to be designed with an additional layer of variety.
For example, the Dornean Braha'tok-Class Gunship has an official maximum atmospheric speed of 800 km/h, which should give it a Space of 4. This is painfully slow for a vessel intended as a gunboat / system patrol corvette, so I gave it a Space of 7 and headcanoned that, in order to fit a Space 7 sublight drive into such a small hull, the designers were forced to cut corners on the atmosphere-drive portion of the sublight drives, reasoning that a ship intended primarily for space combat wouldn't need the atmospheric performance.
Another example is my Z-Wing Close Air Support Starfighter. A modified Z-95 Headhunter, the Z-Wing is equipped with an atmosphere drive component pulled from a Combat Cloud Car, giving it the Atmosphere of a ship with Space 12, despite only having a Space of 6. This is because the ship is intended to provide ground support and air superiority protection to Alliance Ground Forces while still being able to deploy and withdraw across interstellar distances. Because its primary mission is atmospheric combat, atmospheric performance was emphasized at the expense of space performance.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Fri Jan 26, 2024 1:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14213
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2024 1:34 am Post subject: |
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Remember though, Rogue one was a Disney production, and we all know they pretty much ignored everything BUT The original films, INCLUDING the RPG..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2024 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Remember though, Rogue one was a Disney production, and we all know they pretty much ignored everything BUT The original films, INCLUDING the RPG.. |
I’m selective about what I include from Disney, and the escape from Jeddha factored heavily into my design of the Blind Hyperspace Jump rules I linked above. Short version: my headcanon has the U-Wing at Jeddha as a modified Intel Courier equipped with an override for the hyperspace cut-out, which would allow it to make a blind jump in extreme circumstances.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10435
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2024 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Re: 1st Edition scale rules, CRMcNeill wrote: | | Check page 58 of the 1E Star Wars Sourcebook (first page of the Vehicles chapter). It has rules for starfighter vs. vehicle |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | "Starships cover thousands of kilometers per second in open space." (2R&E pg. 123)
Thousands of kilometers per second is a lot faster than the A-Wing's 1,300 kilometers per hour, thus ships are obviously capable of much greater velocities than their atmospheric performance indicates. However, for unknown reasons, they don't actually use that level of thrust in atmosphere, even under the most dire of circumstances...
Yes, WEG says that ships use their sublight drives in atmosphere. However, as I pointed out above, they appear to only be able to use a fraction of their full power in atmosphere, even under circumstances where the ability to use that full power is likely the difference between life and death. Again, WEG gives no particular reason for this, but it is baked into their stat system |
It was baked into their system, but WEG did give particular reasons. They are not unknown reasons. You cited the reference to it yourself in 2019...
| Bill Slavicsek wrote: | | For Star Wars: The Roleplaying Game purposes, when flying in planetary atmospheres a starfighter's sublight speed and maneuverability codes directly correspond to a repulsorcraft's speed and maneuverability codes. (Though starfighters fly much faster and are more agile in vacuum, wind resistance and gravity affect their performance considerably.) |
This premise was baked directly into 2e's "Ships in an Atmosphere" correlation that was made into a chart on R&E p.129.
Of course, the scale rules changed with new subeditions. But the parenthetical sentence is a WEG fluff explanation that directly speaks to why the speed of starships, which are much faster in space, are to scale with repulsorcraft speeds in planetary atmospheres:
Wind resistance and gravity affect their performance "considerably." That's two reasons.
Since the premise for your head-canon is emphatically based on the absence of WEG giving any explanation for why starships are slower in atmospheres, it seems like you now have two options:
Stop saying WEG doesn't provide a reason, and adopt this actual-EU canon into your head-canon.
OR
Stop saying WEG doesn't provide a reason, and instead say 'I don't like those reasons so I choose to disregard them.'
Either way, please stop saying WEG doesn't provide a reason because that would misrepresenting WEG.
And RO showing ships entering hyperspace in atmospheres is completely unrelated to this. Even if RO was part of the same canon that WEG is, RO does not show ships moving thousands of kilometers per second in atmospheres with their sublight engines. It shows them entering hyperspace using their hyperdrive, not their sublight or their repulsorlift engine. Whether entering hyperspace in an atmosphere is allowed under WEG or not is a completely independent question from which engine WEG indicates that spaceships use in atmospheres or why they can't travel Space speeds in atmospheres.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | It was baked into their system, but WEG did give particular reasons. They are not unknown reasons. |
Apologies for missing an obscure reference that (apparently) didn't get included in 2E and 2R&E.
| Quote: | | You cited the reference to it yourself in 2019... |
As I recall, I cited it in response to a question about where the rules for vehicle vs. starship combat could be found. I don't recall ever reading that particular sentence .
| Quote: | | Wind resistance and gravity affect their performance "considerably." |
| Quote: | | Stop saying WEG doesn't provide a reason, and instead say 'I don't like those reasons so I choose to disregard them.' |
I choose the latter, as the tech level of the SWU (repulsorlifts, shielding, high output reactors and stardrives, etc) should be more than enough to render such things moot.
| Quote: | | And RO showing ships entering hyperspace in atmospheres is completely unrelated to this. |
Yes. I only responded because Inquisitor brought it up.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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