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klhaviation
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Ziz
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 26 Feb 2022
Posts: 112
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 Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2024 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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I'm guessing you'll have a point where you put the whole thing out there for proofreading before finally calling it done - I already found a couple of typos just on those two pages.
P 68 - "Determine how hard hetask is..." - I'm guessing that's "the task". Also, in the following sentence, you spontaneously changed the sex of the player - "have the character roll his skill dice", "she rolls her attribute dice."
P 69 - second column, "Be Fair and Impartial" - "rules should be used as a wat to make the game more exciting" - "way", right? |
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klhaviation
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Joined: 19 Aug 2014
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2024 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes this is very much a very rough draft. As far as proof reading. I'm working on a process for volunteers to make that happen. Thank you for you feedback. |
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pakman
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Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 441
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2024 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Yes this is very much a very rough draft. As far as proof reading. I'm working on a process for volunteers to make that happen. Thank you for you feedback. |
Looks great - very well done!!!!
You set a high bar for others who are working our own material - but I mean that in a positive way - as your work is an inspiration.
As far as your comment regarding volunteers - I am working on a major project (a massive house rules version - I just redid the book) and am almost at the point where I will want help in proofing, clarity feedback, playtesting etc.
What is the best way to start that - as it feels like it could easily get overwhelming - and how do you filter out quality feedback from contrarians etc.
Can you share a bit about the proofing/feedback process you have used before?
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SW Fan, Gamer, Comic, Corporate nerd.
Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon.... |
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Antilles
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Joined: 06 Feb 2021
Posts: 76
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2024 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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Wow! Looks amazing! Great work |
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klhaviation
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 19 Aug 2014
Posts: 188
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2024 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | | Quote: | | Yes this is very much a very rough draft. As far as proof reading. I'm working on a process for volunteers to make that happen. Thank you for you feedback. |
Looks great - very well done!!!!
You set a high bar for others who are working our own material - but I mean that in a positive way - as your work is an inspiration.
As far as your comment regarding volunteers - I am working on a major project (a massive house rules version - I just redid the book) and am almost at the point where I will want help in proofing, clarity feedback, playtesting etc.
What is the best way to start that - as it feels like it could easily get overwhelming - and how do you filter out quality feedback from contrarians etc.
Can you share a bit about the proofing/feedback process you have used before? |
One of the challenges of fan creations is that they are one-person projects often. And as a singular person we generally have one strong skill (layout, writing, art, adventure plots, etc.). The other skills are merely high school or college level skills... So fan projects unfortunately suffer some obvious production flaws in the editing, layout, art, or writing departments.
I don't think there is an easy solution. REUP was a team of 3... None of us had an editing background. Just look at REUP's "Forward" (instead of Foreword) and you can see that.
It's always an experiment... If you give drafts to the community you will have some very talented people offer feedback... The tone of that feedback will range from supportive but critical.. to just critical... But as developers we need to be empathetic... Don't get a thick skin because any critical response means someone is sharing an observation you didn't (or maybe couldn't) have on your own... Its a gift.
Now sometimes the feedback is from a narrow perspective and not helpful or relevant.... But other times it's just so coarsely written it "feels" harsh. As developers we need to be open to it all and filter it. It's all a gift, even if we don't agree. And sometimes we need to chew on it and have a heart to heart with our egos and accept that we fugged up a bit.
So I suggest posting drafts to the community... You might not get a lot of response if no one is excited up front... That's fine... Not every work grabs everyone the same way. Its luck of the draw.
Just don't seek approval or validation from the community. This is your work, not theirs and there are no awards for fan works. Pour it out from the heart onto paper.
My last advice is to not stop learning. Each work you do will hone your skills. Buy the Chicago Style Guide. Learn about layout (YouTube or just pull out a ruler and see how WEG did it). You can use Word (that is what R&R is being done in). Even Libre Office works. The 'look" is all about line hight, font size and margins. Measure out a WEG book you find attractive and see what they used for the columns. Develop an eye for art... Don't settle on the first pic you see that fits... Consider size of pic (use Google image filters and Google image search). Be careful with your colors, use scans of color books and the dropper function on GIMP (a free open source photoshop style program) to figure out the RGB.
There are a ton of tricks. I intend to put the templates for a black and white and color Word docs for people to use... But layout is a tough skill.
I encourage you to just play around with settings... Look at the advanced tab under Font options and Paragraph options. Use multiple line spacing instead of single. Manual hyphens... Don't use text wrapping around pictures... Set the paragraph margins.
Just keep plugging away... Listen to critique, but logically weigh it. |
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2024 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| klhaviation wrote: |
REUP got some hate because it was gluttonous. I admit it was very much overboard and more time should have been spent editing, less time on plugging in prequel and EU stat blocks. I'm still very proud of it. REUP is really cool for what it is... But I got a big head and it shouldn't have been as apocryphal as it turned out to be.
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To be fair, it's the internet. Whatever project you're on, it's going to get hate from someone. Eric Trautman did a great little tribute document, including hiring an artist with the same style as the old WEG books, for Rogue One. People gave him crap for it not being a full sourcebook.
And people are still finding ways to POD the REUP (large as it is). I'd say that if 10 years later people are willing to spend the money on it, you've done a good thing.
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Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind. |
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Forceally
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Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 1060
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2024 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | klhaviation wrote: |
REUP got some hate because it was gluttonous. I admit it was very much overboard and more time should have been spent editing, less time on plugging in prequel and EU stat blocks. I'm still very proud of it. REUP is really cool for what it is... But I got a big head and it shouldn't have been as apocryphal as it turned out to be.
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To be fair, it's the internet. Whatever project you're on, it's going to get hate from someone. Eric Trautman did a great little tribute document, including hiring an artist with the same style as the old WEG books, for Rogue One. People gave him crap for it not being a full sourcebook.
And people are still finding ways to POD the REUP (large as it is). I'd say that if 10 years later people are willing to spend the money on it, you've done a good thing. |
In regards to the Rogue One Sourcebook, if it's what I think it is, then I've seen it. It's an excellent recreation of the WEG style. I think the flak is over the fact that what we got was a teaser. A sample of what's to come. Yet, here we are, and still, there's nothing further. No sourcebook. Nothing. Yes, I'm still waiting for a sourcebook. Yes, I'm not happy about the delay or lack of progress. But I'm not posting any hate mail or anything in that vein. Got too much going on as it is. |
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cheshire
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Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2024 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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I had him on my podcast a long while back. When we were chatting before the recording he sounded like it was just a fun little homage that was a completed project. He hadn't given any indication that he was planning to release more. Granted, we were talking more about "the old days" at WEG and Every Star a Destination.
I'd also seen some pretty angry stuff right when it was first released that there wasn't more.
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Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind. |
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2286
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2024 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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I thought it was great for what it was and and am disappointed people expected more.
To me it's like the old story of a man goes down a street and stops at every house, giving them five dollars. He does this again the next day, and the next, and this goes on for a week. On the eighth day, when nothing comes, people stand on their doorstep and shake their fist in the air "where is my five dollars!" 
We should be grateful for what we got (and it was brilliant; I used them as PCs in a one-off adventure and it saved me a ton of work). He was not obligated to give us anything more.
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Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
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pakman
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Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 441
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2024 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| klhaviation wrote: | | pakman wrote: |
What is the best way to start that - as it feels like it could easily get overwhelming - and how do you filter out quality feedback from contrarians etc.
Can you share a bit about the proofing/feedback process you have used before? |
One of the challenges of fan creations is that they are one-person projects often. And as a singular person we generally have one strong skill (layout, writing, art, adventure plots, etc.). The other skills are merely high school or college level skills... So fan projects unfortunately suffer some obvious production flaws in the editing, layout, art, or writing departments.
So I suggest posting drafts to the community... You might not get a lot of response if no one is excited up front... That's fine... Not every work grabs everyone the same way. Its luck of the draw.
<SNIP FOR READABILITY>
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Thank you for the well articulated and honest response - it all resonates very well and is spot on. It is an emotional journey putting your labor of love out to a community. Your advice is all good.
On the mechanical aspects _ style, etc. - yes agree - while I have only limited desktop publishing experience, as part of my day job I do have to produce often long complex documents to a professional standard - no, not to the quality of an actual graphics designer - but the basics of spacing, balancing page elements, white space etc. I think my stuff looks decent for a ...normal person (a graphics designer could do MUCH better in other words).
What is was mainly asking about - is the logistics of it.
It is a big project (I know you can relate) - I have a goal of about 250 pages, with 220 written, and about 110 done and complete. The core rules and most critical sections are mostly done, trying to finish up secondary stuff now (advanced skills and starhips combat) then tertiary stuff (gear, npcs etc.).
I am about ready to get a wider set of eyes on things - but not sure of the specific I might use to do that...
General posts, chapter at a time? Or describe it and ask for volunteers who want to do specific things (rules flow, readability, formatting, proofing, layout and design, etc.).
Posts on forums? A discord? Use google docs, dropbox? (I know one thing - won't use facebook....sheesh...).
How do you get feedback? Public posts, forms, emails, zoom calls, carrier pigeons?
Then how do you track it - a big spreadsheet? a kanban process? sticky notes? All, some, none?
As I am getting close to being ready to open up to extra feedback (many individual rules have been discussed on various mediums for the last few years) - I actually have a draft post I was going to put up here on the pit soon, about next steps for this kind of project.... but - thought I would ask a veteran... 
_________________
SW Fan, Gamer, Comic, Corporate nerd.
Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon.... |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10434
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2024 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | I had him on my podcast a long while back. When we were chatting before the recording he sounded like it was just a fun little homage that was a completed project. He hadn't given any indication that he was planning to release more. Granted, we were talking more about "the old days" at WEG and Every Star a Destination.
I'd also seen some pretty angry stuff right when it was first released that there wasn't more. |
(1) I thought it was quite obvious what the RO PDF was from the beginning, and never expected anything more. He was excited that RO made him feel like WEG Star Wars had made him feel. The RO PDF was fun.
(2) People that actually got angry they didn't get more are self-entitled jerks. It's not just the internet. It's people. The internet having that negativity is just a symptom of the people.
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klhaviation
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Joined: 19 Aug 2014
Posts: 188
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2024 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | | klhaviation wrote: | | pakman wrote: |
What is the best way to start that - as it feels like it could easily get overwhelming - and how do you filter out quality feedback from contrarians etc.
Can you share a bit about the proofing/feedback process you have used before? |
One of the challenges of fan creations is that they are one-person projects often. And as a singular person we generally have one strong skill (layout, writing, art, adventure plots, etc.). The other skills are merely high school or college level skills... So fan projects unfortunately suffer some obvious production flaws in the editing, layout, art, or writing departments.
So I suggest posting drafts to the community... You might not get a lot of response if no one is excited up front... That's fine... Not every work grabs everyone the same way. Its luck of the draw.
<SNIP FOR READABILITY>
|
Thank you for the well articulated and honest response - it all resonates very well and is spot on. It is an emotional journey putting your labor of love out to a community. Your advice is all good.
On the mechanical aspects _ style, etc. - yes agree - while I have only limited desktop publishing experience, as part of my day job I do have to produce often long complex documents to a professional standard - no, not to the quality of an actual graphics designer - but the basics of spacing, balancing page elements, white space etc. I think my stuff looks decent for a ...normal person (a graphics designer could do MUCH better in other words).
What is was mainly asking about - is the logistics of it.
It is a big project (I know you can relate) - I have a goal of about 250 pages, with 220 written, and about 110 done and complete. The core rules and most critical sections are mostly done, trying to finish up secondary stuff now (advanced skills and starhips combat) then tertiary stuff (gear, npcs etc.).
I am about ready to get a wider set of eyes on things - but not sure of the specific I might use to do that...
General posts, chapter at a time? Or describe it and ask for volunteers who want to do specific things (rules flow, readability, formatting, proofing, layout and design, etc.).
Posts on forums? A discord? Use google docs, dropbox? (I know one thing - won't use facebook....sheesh...).
How do you get feedback? Public posts, forms, emails, zoom calls, carrier pigeons?
Then how do you track it - a big spreadsheet? a kanban process? sticky notes? All, some, none?
As I am getting close to being ready to open up to extra feedback (many individual rules have been discussed on various mediums for the last few years) - I actually have a draft post I was going to put up here on the pit soon, about next steps for this kind of project.... but - thought I would ask a veteran... |
Ok so brace yourself... You may have the most innovative D6 rules for star wars ever written... But you will struggle getting people excited.
You could post a draft and have a topic on RP or a SWD6 FB page.... And get 1 or 2 responses. The D6 star wars community is truly amazing... But diverse... It's hard to get people excited about a 3rd edition or house rules, because one of the strengths of the system is that it is so open to an individuals perception of what house rules should be.
So in short, don't expect much support from an open community "playtest"... But at the same time don't be surprised if you find a compatriots who want to donate time. It's all kind of luck.
I have learned to be self sufficient. I walk away from the text for a month, then reread it with a critical eye, because unless someone is getting paid, or unless they are that "gaming soulmate" that thinks along the same lines as you, you'll never get a robust editorial critique from the community. And that's not an insult to the community... We have lives... Wifes, husbands, kids, jobs etc...
I don't think it's a bad idea to post your files for review. Many people are willing and ready to offer critique... But as the above thread mentions, even the gods of SWD6 design who invested in great art and layout get flak.
I've accepted that my work will never be publisher quality. There will be mistakes and poor choices... But don't get paralyzed by that.
There is no process. I have, however, met former writers and editors from WEG, other RPG writers and publishers... (None of which offered services for obvious reasons) Who encouraged and challenged me.
Hate to say it but it's a solo mission, and when you have your "print ready" copy... Somebody is gonna point out all the mistakes... Even if you have the community a year to review it.
Truth is that's the way it works in professional design too... You can follow professional standards like the ADDIE or SAM process... And people won't be critical until it's live and in print. Oh well...
Just don't lose heart. Remember these are passion projects... And frankly I enjoy the fan works so much, even ones I never would have written myself.
TBH, I'd never volunteer to layout or edit someone else's work... Hate to say it, but it's true... If I don't have the passion for it, I'll half a** it. I wouldn't expect more for people who edit my work. So we just have to accept what we can do is all we can do.
Believe me I was on the fringes of the Womp Rat Press cult that hoped to codify and unify all SWD6 development. It was a nice dream and all parties involved had the best intentions and had a lot of talent... But it was doomed because this community is driven by individual efforts.
So take your time, so that you can be effective as your own editor. and as bill shake a spear said "to thine own self be true.' don't get discouraged by the flak from the Internet. Believe me, the people who love your work won't speak up... Why should they? But know they exist. |
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