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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1861
Location: Norway
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 Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2023 10:57 pm Post subject: An Experiment on "Force Sensitive" rules |
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In a conversation the old "could Han Solo be force sensitive"
and we both agreed that he was not, the moveis and most if not all lore indicates that he is not.
But we decided to try and see if could make a force sensitive "character" that does not have any force skills, (ACS)
or use the force attribute system which can give a "natural talent"
and no force powers.
We came up with a character that is force sensitive "unknowinly", maybe even does not belive in the "jedi voodoo" and all that.
But still is force sensitive and "bound" by the morality rules just like "normal" force sensitives.
he will get one addtional force point as all force sensitives, but he gains what we called "scoundrel's luck" which is a free CP or rather a free +1D bonus to ANY roll. and he can use this as many times as he has force points, but once pr skill.
this is what we came up with, in our case we called the +1D bunus "scoundrel's luck" since we were using Han Solo for this.
Force Sensitive
(untrained)
+1 Forc Point
+1D Dice Bonus to any roll pr force point
Must follow the normal Dark/Light rules as all other force sensitive characters |
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pakman
Commander
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2023 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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Each group has to decide how to handle this.
Many feel that the basic "it is alive so it has some connection" is represented by using character and force points.
SO, I would think han would have that.
However - in a similar thought.... as part of my house rules overhaul...
It is one part of the comprehensive overhaul to balance out force powers, and give non-force uesrs other options.
(I also have some advanced skills specifically for non-force users to spend points on).
We have added a 7th attribute.
Short Description from on section of my house rules;
The final seventh Attribute is based on if the character is Force
Sensitive (has the potential to be a jedi, etc.) or not.
• Force: Measure of a Force user’s connection with the Force.
• Luck: Measure of a character’s overall fortune and …luck.
Basically - the die code of the LUCK attribute - are CP they can spend per session.
have 2D - get 2 CP per session to spend. (I call CP Hero Dice, and these from luck as Lucky Hero Dice).
Control,Sense and Alter are Skills under FORCE.
There are no skills under luck.
Longer Description from Attributes and Skills Chapter;
Force Sensitive or Luck
The final Attribute is based on if the character is Force Sensitive.
Force: Measure of the strength of a being’s connection with the
Force. Those who have the Force Attribute are described as
Force Sensitive, even if the value is 0D, which might represent a
latent or undeveloped ability.
The few skills under Force represent a character’s ability to
manipulate or perceive specific aspects of the Force.
Luck: Represents a character’s overall fortune and uncanny
ability to seemingly influence chance in their favor. These Non-
Force Sensitive characters represent the vast majority of beings
in the galaxy; and while they may not consciously be aware of it
– it represents their interaction with the Force.
Luck is the only Attribute with no dedicated skills, instead it
grants the player a pool of Luck Dice, used exactly the same as
Hero Dice, except the player has the option of keeping the
result and expending the die AFTER the roll.
So, everyone either has Force or Luck as their 7th.
Note - a Force Sensitive character CAN start with 0D in Force - representing a latent Force User - who has not manifested (i.e. improved the attirbute) yet.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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I’d rather go with Luck being a Story Factor applied to specific characters, perhaps allowing for rerolls on a failed roll.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10435
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2023 2:11 am Post subject: Re: An Experiment on "Force Sensitive" rules |
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Thanks for sharing your rules/ideas, guys.
| pakman wrote: | Basically - the die code of the LUCK attribute - are CP they can spend per session.
have 2D - get 2 CP per session to spend. (I call CP Hero Dice, and these from luck as Lucky Hero Dice).
...
So, everyone either has Force or Luck as their 7th.
Note - a Force Sensitive character CAN start with 0D in Force - representing a latent Force User - who has not manifested (i.e. improved the attirbute) yet. |
What are the attribute minimums and maximums of Force and Luck? Since a Force-sensitive character can start with 0D in the Force, does than also mean that a non-FS PC can forgo Luck by having 0D in Luck and thus operate similar to non-FS characters in RAW with the total attribute dice value allocated between their normal attributes?
I ask because, from a dice roll result probability standpoint, I don't see how that bonus CPs/Lucky Hero Dice per session equate in value to the same number of attribute dice allocated to normal attributes, which permanently raises all attribute/default skill rolls, plus the basis for starting skill dice allocation and normal skill improvement after play begins. If I was a player in your game and had a choice, I would definitely not choose Luck and rather build the dice into normal attributes. You get more bang for your buck in attribute dice. Attribute dice > skill dice > bonus CPs per session. This is true for D6 Classic, but I think it is still true for D6 Legends too.
| pakman wrote: | | Luck is the only Attribute with no dedicated skills, instead it grants the player a pool of Luck Dice, used exactly the same as Hero Dice, except the player has the option of keeping the result and expending the die AFTER the roll. |
Except? In RAW (See R&E p.83), CPs come with the ability to see the result of the base roll without CPs and then decide to add them or not. Are you saying that Lucky Hero Dice work like CPs in RAW, but Hero Dice are worse than RAW CPs in that their use must be declared before the roll?
| Mamatried wrote: | Force Sensitive (untrained)
+1 Forc Point
+1D Dice Bonus to any roll pr force point
Must follow the normal Dark/Light rules as all other force sensitive characters |
How often do you get the +1D bonus die? Once per session like pakman? And can untrained FS characters later learn the Force and gain Force skills?
| Mamatried wrote: | | this is what we came up with, in our case we called the +1D bunus "scoundrel's luck" since we were using Han Solo for this. |
If I were the GM with this rule and Han Solo were a PC, I would have given Han a DSP for killing Greedo when he could have set his blaster for stun and pulled the same stunt. Greedo was clearly going to kill him so the preemptive blast was self-defense, but Han could have stunned Greedo and still walked out of there.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I’d rather go with Luck being a Story Factor applied to specific characters, perhaps allowing for rerolls on a failed roll. |
Rerolling a failed result is a game mechanically powerful ability, so that would be one powerful story factor. How often would you say they can reroll? Once per adventure? And what would stop any player from choosing this story factor?
| On R&E p.83-84, an author wrote: | | Character points are a very minor manifestation of the Force... Force points represent a character doing his or her best to use skill, talent (and luck) to accomplish to accomplish something. Force Points represent a common and seemingly "subconscious" manifestation of the Force |
Adding dice to any roll through FPs and CPs could easily represent good luck. I feel these mechanics are adequate so no additional rules are really needed to represent luck. YMMV.
I did sort of add a luck factor to one skill. In my game, all starting skill dice allocations must be explainable by the PC's written background, with a single exception: the first 1D allocated to agility (my dodge skill). That can be thought of representing an innate "luck" the character has of avoiding danger, even if the character had little or no experience or training in that. But game mechanically, it works no different in play. For everything else, there are CPs and FPs (which can also further benefit dodging). PCs tend to have more CPs and FPs than NPCs do, which means PCs are "luckier" than average.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14213
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2023 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I’d rather go with Luck being a Story Factor applied to specific characters, perhaps allowing for rerolls on a failed roll. |
To me, luck already exists via FP and CP.
No need to add in another rule for it.
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pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 441
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2023 11:34 am Post subject: Re: An Experiment on "Force Sensitive" rules |
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| Whill wrote: | Thanks for sharing your rules/ideas, guys.
| pakman wrote: | Basically - the die code of the LUCK attribute - are CP they can spend per session.
have 2D - get 2 CP per session to spend. (I call CP Hero Dice, and these from luck as Lucky Hero Dice).
...
So, everyone either has Force or Luck as their 7th.
Note - a Force Sensitive character CAN start with 0D in Force - representing a latent Force User - who has not manifested (i.e. improved the attirbute) yet. |
What are the attribute minimums and maximums of Force and Luck? Since a Force-sensitive character can start with 0D in the Force, does than also mean that a non-FS PC can forgo Luck by having 0D in Luck and thus operate similar to non-FS characters in RAW with the total attribute dice value allocated between their normal attributes?
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Min : zero.
Max: 4d like just about any other stat.
(with some racial adjustments).
However - these use the same pool of attribute dice as all the other stats...so...
Yes, they can be zero - but they are both incredibly valuable - so it is very rare. All other limits apply.
| Whill wrote: |
| pakman wrote: | | Luck is the only Attribute with no dedicated skills, instead it grants the player a pool of Luck Dice, used exactly the same as Hero Dice, except the player has the option of keeping the result and expending the die AFTER the roll. |
Except? In RAW (See R&E p.83), CPs come with the ability to see the result of the base roll without CPs and then decide to add them or not. Are you saying that Lucky Hero Dice work like CPs in RAW, but Hero Dice are worse than RAW CPs in that their use must be declared before the roll?
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Decide after the roll.
The point is - if you roll bad - you did not expend the die.
Side note: like many others in house rules - I don't use CP for bonus dice in game and character advancement. I give XP for advancing characters (yes, it is adjusted) and "hero dice" for sessions based on good roleplaying, partipcation etc. Hero dice expire at the end of a session.
Luck dice are basically a number of Hero Dice the player gets at each session.
But if they don't like the roll on the luck die, they don't have to expend it.
Are these valuable? YES. But so is being able to use a lightsaber effectively, etc.
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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1861
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2023 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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basically the Untrained force Sensitive can get "free" CP to use pr adventure.
The non sensistive with 5 CP can use 2 CP pr adventure
the Untrained Force Sensitive can ADD CP pr session equal to his force points but only 1D pr Roll.
So the force sensitie can use his 2 Cp like anyone else, but then suddenly the force aids him and he can add another CP (=1D) to ANY roll for a maximum of 2 rolls as he has 2 Force points.
When he becomes force sensitive and gains a +1D to any Force Skill this force skill and the power(s) he can now access are ruled as normal.
and his untrained "bonus cp" are replaced with the access to a learned force power
I feel that any force power is worth this trade |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | To me, luck already exists via FP and CP.
No need to add in another rule for it. |
For the most part, I agree, but I do think there’s room for representing a character like Han Solo, whose luck seems to swing to greater extremes than with most people.
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The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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pakman
Commander
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Posts: 441
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | To me, luck already exists via FP and CP.
No need to add in another rule for it. |
For the most part, I agree, but I do think there’s room for representing a character like Han Solo, whose luck seems to swing to greater extremes than with most people. |
Agreed - which is why I added a Luck attribute.
But again - this fits in with my other changes to balance force users, and give non-force users other options (other advanced skill trees - give access to other options than "oh look, my Blaster now went from 8D to 8D+1").
Every gm will find what works for their game and some may have a very different solution.
Best of luck my friends in what ever you decide.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10435
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Adding dice to any roll through FPs and CPs could easily represent good luck. I feel these mechanics are adequate so no additional rules are really needed to represent luck. YMMV. |
| garhkal wrote: | To me, luck already exists via FP and CP.
No need to add in another rule for it. |
Agreed!
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | For the most part, I agree, but I do think there’s room for representing a character like Han Solo, whose luck seems to swing to greater extremes than with most people. |
There is no limit the number of CPs that a character have. An NPC with a lot more luck than skill can easily be represented with a lot of CPs. So again, there are no additional rules needed to represent very lucky characters with RAW.
Solo is only extremely lucky until he isn't, and the author decides when the luck comes and goes for dramatic purposes in the linear story. In the game, Solo is an NPC. As a GM controlling an NPC, the GM can decide when to spend and when to not spend CPs for the character. We can only go so far in adapting the scripted stories of characters into game mechanics governing a simulated universe for gaming purposes.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 2:36 am Post subject: |
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That’s why I said “like” Han Solo. The idea being some sort of story factor that emulates Solo’s wildly mercurial luck for a PC. Simply assigning additional FP or CP only simulates half of the equation; there would need to be another half to simulate the bad luck. My initial thought is having the PC get additional penalties on Wild Dice failures, but get bonus FP to compensate. That way, the PC gets the effect of Solo’s occasional rotten luck, but also gets a FP to spend on the critical roll that gets them out of the mess said rotten luck got them into in the first place.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: An Experiment on "Force Sensitive" rules |
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| pakman wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | pakman wrote: | | Luck is the only Attribute with no dedicated skills, instead it grants the player a pool of Luck Dice, used exactly the same as Hero Dice, except the player has the option of keeping the result and expending the die AFTER the roll. |
Except? In RAW (See R&E p.83), CPs come with the ability to see the result of the base roll without CPs and then decide to add them or not. Are you saying that Lucky Hero Dice work like CPs in RAW, but Hero Dice are worse than RAW CPs in that their use must be declared before the roll?
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Decide after the roll.
The point is - if you roll bad - you did not expend the die.
Side note: like many others in house rules - I don't use CP for bonus dice in game and character advancement. I give XP for advancing characters (yes, it is adjusted) and "hero dice" for sessions based on good roleplaying, partipcation etc. Hero dice expire at the end of a session.
Luck dice are basically a number of Hero Dice the player gets at each session.
But if they don't like the roll on the luck die, they don't have to expend it. |
I think I understand what you mean, but I'm not sure you understand me.
In RAW, CPs come with the ability to see the base roll, and then decide after if you want to spend CPs to add to the roll or not. If you roll horrible and CPs won't help anyway, then you don't have to spend the CP in the first place. And you can spend them one by one, meaning you can roll the base roll, decide it needs boosted by one CP, roll that and add it to the total, and then decide if you want to add another CP, etc. up to the max CPs allowed for that action or the PC runs out of CPs.
You said Luck dice can be added to your roll, and then if you roll poorly and they don't help, then you get the Luck back. That accomplishes the same thing in the end, but the RAW method for CPs seems a bit more direct.
And it still isn't clear how Hero dice work. Your description of Luck dice sounds like the 'getting it back if it doesn't help' rule is an added benefit above and beyond how Hero dice work. So are Hero dice worse than CPs in RAW in that there is no seeing the base roll first and deciding to add to it (nor adding them to the base roll and maybe getting them back like your Luck points)?
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | The idea being some sort of story factor that emulates Solo’s wildly mercurial luck for a PC. Simply assigning additional FP or CP only simulates half of the equation; there would need to be another half to simulate the bad luck. My initial thought is having the PC get additional penalties on Wild Dice failures, but get bonus FP to compensate. That way, the PC gets the effect of Solo’s occasional rotten luck, but also gets a FP to spend on the critical roll that gets them out of the mess said rotten luck got them into in the first place. |
Interesting. I'd like to see more about this.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2023 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: An Experiment on "Force Sensitive" rules |
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| Whill wrote: | | Interesting. I'd like to see more about this. |
It’s just a vague concept at the moment. I recall seeing at least one ADSA system with Bad Luck as a character flaw, but I don’t recall the specifics. The most obvious way to do it under the RAW is to come up with a much more punitive result for Wild Fail results on dice. One possibility that occurs to me is, if you play where only one D is the Wild and all the rest are treated as face value, the “Wild Luck” character could have two Wild Dice instead of one.
Anyone else have thoughts?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, I found the rule I mentioned in the above post. It's from the Serenity RPG (Margaret Weiss Productions), and can be found on pg. 54 of the core rulebook.Things Don't Go Smooth (Minor/Major)
Lady Luck hates your guts. For as long as you can remember, things have never gone smooth for you. Bad luck follows you around and coincidences never work in your favor.
Penalty: Once per session, the GM can force you to re-roll an action and take the lowest of the two results. As a Major Trait, the GM can make you re-roll two actions per session.
My inclination would be to modify this by only allowing the GM to force a re-roll on a Wild Failure, then give the PC an extra FP as compensation.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
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| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2023 11:20 am Post subject: Re: An Experiment on "Force Sensitive" rules |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Interesting. I'd like to see more about this. |
It’s just a vague concept at the moment. I recall seeing at least one ADSA system with Bad Luck as a character flaw, but I don’t recall the specifics. The most obvious way to do it under the RAW is to come up with a much more punitive result for Wild Fail results on dice. One possibility that occurs to me is, if you play where only one D is the Wild and all the rest are treated as face value, the “Wild Luck” character could have two Wild Dice instead of one.
Anyone else have thoughts? |
Being a ...creative group - my players try to avoid complications at all costs.
They very often use the option of dropping the 1 from the wild die and losing the highest die.
However - I love this concept as some kind of ..option.
Fickle Winds of Luck
When rolling a 1 on the wild die, a player cannot avoid a Complication by dropping the highest die. However, they do get a bonus point which can be spent as a CP to modify a roll, but expires at the end of the current session.
Or something like that.....
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