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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 1:43 am Post subject: Dark side tainted items. |
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A while back, on a Discord site discussing con gaming, someone mentioned a sparks event, where after defeating a sith acolyte, his pc picked up a tainted sith sword, and took a wound from it (because o the taint). Much like how in ADND (both 1e and 2e), if someone of alignment X, picks up an intelligent weapon for aligmment B, he takes damage.
Has anyone here, ever done something similar?
How did You handle it? Was it auto damage, or was there a soak roll?
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pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 441
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Dark side tainted items. |
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| garhkal wrote: | A while back, on a Discord site discussing con gaming, someone mentioned a sparks event, where after defeating a sith acolyte, his pc picked up a tainted sith sword, and took a wound from it (because o the taint). Much like how in ADND (both 1e and 2e), if someone of alignment X, picks up an intelligent weapon for aligmment B, he takes damage.
Has anyone here, ever done something similar?
How did You handle it? Was it auto damage, or was there a soak roll? |
This happened recently in my game... but simple damage...... the dark side is more seductive...
(it was a tainted lightsaber - they have to cleanse the crystal or get a new one in my game).
I handled it two ways - roleplaying and story, and limited mechanics.
RP - I let the player know - that is kind of just ...tugged at him....made his character more aggressive etc. The player did great with it - and in his gaming his "hero" is slipping closer to "the ends justify the means" type attitude. In a rp moment - he can resist the temptations with a willpower save. But again - mostly just playing it.
Mechanics - I don't use a 1-6 scale on dark side points, so this may not work with everyone, (my scale is 1-100) - but while under its influence, any time the player would gain a dark side point, that total is +1.
Recently the party encountered another dangerous force Talisman - which they have to keep away from the bad guys, and are literally going to throw it into a volcano next session.... but the character with the tainted lightsaber I told them "why should this be destroyed - think of all the good you could do with this power.....the others...are just afraid of the responsibility..."
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jtanzer
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 01 Mar 2023
Posts: 118
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: Dark side tainted items. |
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| pakman wrote: |
This happened recently in my game... but simple damage...... the dark side is more seductive...
(it was a tainted lightsaber - they have to cleanse the crystal or get a new one in my game).
I handled it two ways - roleplaying and story, and limited mechanics.
RP - I let the player know - that is kind of just ...tugged at him....made his character more aggressive etc. The player did great with it - and in his gaming his "hero" is slipping closer to "the ends justify the means" type attitude. In a rp moment - he can resist the temptations with a willpower save. But again - mostly just playing it.
Mechanics - I don't use a 1-6 scale on dark side points, so this may not work with everyone, (my scale is 1-100) - but while under its influence, any time the player would gain a dark side point, that total is +1.
Recently the party encountered another dangerous force Talisman - which they have to keep away from the bad guys, and are literally going to throw it into a volcano next session.... but the character with the tainted lightsaber I told them "why should this be destroyed - think of all the good you could do with this power.....the others...are just afraid of the responsibility..." |
I feel that this is actually the wrong way to handle it. First, you're telling the player what their character feels. This is not a good idea as it kills investment. Secondly, the RPGPundit explains how to build and use cursed items. I take his advice seriously, especially since he's run a twelve-year DCC campaign.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10436
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 11:31 pm Post subject: Re: Dark side tainted items. |
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| jtanzer wrote: | | I take his advice seriously, especially since he's run a twelve-year DCC campaign. |
I had to look up "DCC". Not a common abbreviation used here. An OGL third-party variation of D&D, it would seem.
| jtanzer wrote: | | I feel that this is actually the wrong way to handle it. First, you're telling the player what their character feels. This is not a good idea as it kills investment. Secondly, the RPGPundit explains how to build and use cursed items. I take his advice seriously... |
"...or it's going to make you enter into uncontrolled murderous rages." That was about a minute and half later from your selected starting point in the video you shared. I'm having trouble reconciling your criticism of pakman's way of doing it with that. Telling the player what their character feels is bad, but PCs experiencing uncontrollable murderous rages is somehow better? I'll take packman's method over that.
I don't feel cursed magical weapons in fantasy games have much to add to dark side tainted items in Star Wars. It's not the same thing.
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pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 441
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 11:40 pm Post subject: Re: Dark side tainted items. |
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| jtanzer wrote: | | pakman wrote: |
This happened recently in my game... but simple damage...... the dark side is more seductive...
(it was a tainted lightsaber - they have to cleanse the crystal or get a new one in my game).
I handled it two ways - roleplaying and story, and limited mechanics.
RP - I let the player know - that is kind of just ...tugged at him....made his character more aggressive etc. The player did great with it - and in his gaming his "hero" is slipping closer to "the ends justify the means" type attitude. In a rp moment - he can resist the temptations with a willpower save. But again - mostly just playing it.
Mechanics - I don't use a 1-6 scale on dark side points, so this may not work with everyone, (my scale is 1-100) - but while under its influence, any time the player would gain a dark side point, that total is +1.
Recently the party encountered another dangerous force Talisman - which they have to keep away from the bad guys, and are literally going to throw it into a volcano next session.... but the character with the tainted lightsaber I told them "why should this be destroyed - think of all the good you could do with this power.....the others...are just afraid of the responsibility..." |
I feel that this is actually the wrong way to handle it. First, you're telling the player what their character feels. This is not a good idea as it kills investment. Secondly, the RPGPundit explains how to build and use cursed items. I take his advice seriously, especially since he's run a twelve-year DCC campaign. |
Either I did not explain it well, or we are just going to have to agree to disagree.
I told a player, who is a good roleplayer what influence the item would have on their character - an influence. The player, who is a good mature roleplayer- one I have done theater with for over 20 years - knocked it out of the park - all of his actions and dialogues have been more ....harsh, more judgmental, quicker to use violence as a solution etc.
The other players love it - their characters - are starting to worry....
I find simple damage to be ...simplistic.
Star wars is about the story - the hero's jouney and their overcoming fears with the help of their friends and beating the dark side.
Now, the solution my group uses (veteran roleplayers) - may not work for all groups - some might need "you pick it up and take xD6 damage based on your dark side score".
Which is fine - to each their own.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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My first thought would be the Psychological Effects house rule I wrote up a while back, with the character taking penalties to their Willpower rolls to resist compulsory effects.
The rest of thread is worth the read for the debate on the pros/cons of players temporarily losing control of their characters when said characters are subject to compulsion.
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KageRyu
Commodore
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 1391
Location: Lost in the cracks
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| Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2023 1:39 am Post subject: |
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I have had tainted items in my games in past, but never had them deal damage. I had them work toward corrupting whoever wielded them (evil whispering in their ear and whatnot) adding to the difficulty to resist the dark side, increasing the chances to earn DSP, and other subtle corrupting effects (sometimes penalizing persuasion and interaction skills. In one instance, their was a battle of will or lose control to the item for a number of rounds.
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pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 441
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| Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | | I have had tainted items in my games in past, but never had them deal damage. I had them work toward corrupting whoever wielded them (evil whispering in their ear and whatnot) adding to the difficulty to resist the dark side, increasing the chances to earn DSP, and other subtle corrupting effects (sometimes penalizing persuasion and interaction skills. In one instance, their was a battle of will or lose control to the item for a number of rounds. |
This describes the approach my group uses - KageRyu just did a better job than I did !!!!!
I also like the concepts of the psychological effects ideas CRM posted....
Now, I can see - maybe some unique cases where someone picks up an item which has a force ...something (spirit, ghost, presence- whatever) imbuded in it - doing something really nasty - but that is maybe a bit off track - and some folks would not consider that for their game. (some comics and books really got out there.....)
HOWEVER - each group is different what works for one, may not work for another.
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jtanzer
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 01 Mar 2023
Posts: 118
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| Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | | Either I did not explain it well, or we are just going to have to agree to disagree. |
Fair enough, however I think my comment still stands. The best cursed items are like the One Ring from LoTR. However, instead of telling the player what their character feels about this item, simply let the player build that mentality themselves - which is exactly how someone becomes addicted. In the case of SW, I would have dark side items have a small chance of permanently bonding themselves to the character that is cumulative per use. Mechanically, it would start with an 11 on a d66 and increase the range by one step from there. That way, the player feels that they can 'beat the odds' and have a mechanical reinforcement for that belief.
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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2023 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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The way i see these items is "somewhat intelligent"
very close to the concept of intelligent magic items in D&D
How to propperly narrate this or even rule on this with dice and pips is another matter entirely.
I once had a Lightsaber that had belonged to both sith and dark jedi past. Anyone force sensitive that would use it would on any "6" rolled feel a surge or postcognition, distracting the user.
a mere negative effect, but one I found to be a possible story hook, trying to uncover the history of the item.
The item in this case had the agenda to turn the user, as the in my case crystal used was "evil" and relished in the bloodhed and the bloody history of the item.
Any Use of the force, force points and the like would appear normal and as if the lightsaber was "normal" but in reality every time a force point was used, a darkside point was gained regardless until the dsp begins to be an issue
I then used some old table where examples of "taint" effects was described, I of course have forgotten this table and have not even thoght about this in ages, though I can imagine this be similar to Psychological Effects as CRM describes.
We see this with some of the sith masks, the murr amulet and other artifacts described in lore |
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raithyn
Lieutenant
Joined: 24 Jun 2023
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2023 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| jtanzer wrote: | | pakman wrote: | | Either I did not explain it well, or we are just going to have to agree to disagree. |
Fair enough, however I think my comment still stands. The best cursed items are like the One Ring from LoTR. However, instead of telling the player what their character feels about this item, simply let the player build that mentality themselves - which is exactly how someone becomes addicted. In the case of SW, I would have dark side items have a small chance of permanently bonding themselves to the character that is cumulative per use. Mechanically, it would start with an 11 on a d66 and increase the range by one step from there. That way, the player feels that they can 'beat the odds' and have a mechanical reinforcement for that belief. |
While there's a lot of hand wringing online about player agency, I've found in my decade of GMing at my FLGS that players tend to enjoy directors notes. Things like "You seem to hear a whisper behind you and feel rising indignation at the noble's callousness. You're not sure why you feel so strongly." is not the same as "You lash out in anger. Roll an attack." One provides internal tension that the character can struggle with or accept (which the GM should usually make explicit) while the other dictates actions. Both have their uses but the former is a general tool and the latter should be used extremely sparingly.
It's not like we in the real world have full control of our internal dialogue and most players (in my experience) are not only willing but excited to claim the spotlight and simulate that. If anything, I generally find that players take things to far and I have to be clear that a flash of anger isn't an excuse for a full on rampage or a single paranoid thought isn't my saying they should try to kill their teammates in their sleep that night. That's where starting with the strong RPers and letting them model how to play these things out for those with less experience is super useful. |
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jtanzer
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 01 Mar 2023
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2023 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| raithyn wrote: | | jtanzer wrote: | | pakman wrote: | | Either I did not explain it well, or we are just going to have to agree to disagree. |
Fair enough, however I think my comment still stands. The best cursed items are like the One Ring from LoTR. However, instead of telling the player what their character feels about this item, simply let the player build that mentality themselves - which is exactly how someone becomes addicted. In the case of SW, I would have dark side items have a small chance of permanently bonding themselves to the character that is cumulative per use. Mechanically, it would start with an 11 on a d66 and increase the range by one step from there. That way, the player feels that they can 'beat the odds' and have a mechanical reinforcement for that belief. |
While there's a lot of hand wringing online about player agency, I've found in my decade of GMing at my FLGS that players tend to enjoy directors notes. Things like "You seem to hear a whisper behind you and feel rising indignation at the noble's callousness. You're not sure why you feel so strongly." is not the same as "You lash out in anger. Roll an attack." One provides internal tension that the character can struggle with or accept (which the GM should usually make explicit) while the other dictates actions. Both have their uses but the former is a general tool and the latter should be used extremely sparingly.
It's not like we in the real world have full control of our internal dialogue and most players (in my experience) are not only willing but excited to claim the spotlight and simulate that. If anything, I generally find that players take things to far and I have to be clear that a flash of anger isn't an excuse for a full on rampage or a single paranoid thought isn't my saying they should try to kill their teammates in their sleep that night. That's where starting with the strong RPers and letting them model how to play these things out for those with less experience is super useful. |
I'm going to respectfully disagree with you base position. I suspect that if you were to implement a more sandbox or node-based game structure, you'd find your players behaving weirdly because of how you've trained them to play.
Sauce:
Node Based Scenario Desgin
Advanced Node Based Desgin
The Secret Life of Nodes
The Railroading Manifesto
Abused Gamer Syndrome
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raithyn
Lieutenant
Joined: 24 Jun 2023
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2023 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| jtanzer wrote: | | I'm going to respectfully disagree with you base position. I suspect that if you were to implement a more sandbox or node-based game structure, you'd find your players behaving weirdly because of how you've trained them to play. |
I ran two multi-year campaigns that wrapped up in 2021 (before a big life change that's led to periodic one-shots instead). Both were fairly classic sandbox structure with over a dozen weekly players. The design goals you bring to these conversations are valid and I appreciate your consistent willingness to link out to good reference material but I would suggest you consider a broader view of other people's potential gaming experiences and preferences and how those might differ from your own. |
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KageRyu
Commodore
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
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Location: Lost in the cracks
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| Mamatried wrote: | The way i see these items is "somewhat intelligent"
very close to the concept of intelligent magic items in D&D |
I did not handle simply tainted items as intelligent themselves because I did also have Force Artifacts that either were essentially sentient, or had a bound force entity (spirit or wraith) to it which gave it intelligence and agency all of it's own. These were a whole other ball of wax with many more intricacies and layers. Most Fans I feel will be aware that Holocrons as they have been described would be such Intelligent artifacts (due to their Gaurdians). I have only once otherwise had a truly intelligent Force artifact appear in a game...in the form of a Dark Side haunted Funeral Ship (A Star Wars Flying Dutchman adventure featuring Dark Side Wraiths).
The seeming intellect that normal force affected items seemed to possess were directly due to how I played and portrayed the Force itself in my games. I have always liked the concept of the Force having it's own Will. Additionally I have always liked the idea that each side of the Force had it's own will, goals, plans, and wants. These might not be as direct and obvious as those of a sentient being - and often are much more subdued, and unpredictable (except to the GM). The Force itself is a dichotomy of these two opposing aspects of it's personality, and hence the Force Ebbs and Flows, and "Works in mysterious ways". So the Whispering a character might hear in his mind, as if his own thoughts, when handling a tainted object, are the will of the dark side working towards it's own goals through the object and thus whomever holds it. In fact, one such object fell into a rather good natured Smuggler's hand who considered selling it - he knew it was a possible artifact related to the force through information he had gotten. Before he sold it, his "conscience" told him (through the GM of course) that this object would likely be useful to the Jedi in the group...because the Dark Side wanted to corrupt the force user. The player of the smuggler agreed and presented it to the Jedi in the next session without any knowledge of what had just transpired...though I did say he thought he heard a laugh as he handed it over which confused everyone.
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